Archaeologica.org

Actually, I am also a multi-regionalist

I didn't realize that. I don't feel as lonely.

I agree with the rest of your post Cogs, although you have a better grasp of it than I do.

While we're at it, what is your take on the fact that humans bottlenecked after Toba, and other animals did not? Neandertal is known to have much more genetic variation than HSS.

I think there must be more to the story.

Make that a trio! A few more and we can form a music group!

Digit wrote:Make that a trio! A few more and we can form a music group!

You can call yourselves the .........

Minimalist wrote:

Digit wrote:Make that a trio! A few more and we can form a music group!

You can call yourselves the .........

Where's that Neanderthal wind section you posted about six months ago?

While we're at it, what is your take on the fact that humans bottlenecked after Toba, and other animals did not? Neandertal is known to have much more genetic variation than HSS.

I think there must be more to the story.

Beags, yes I am a multi-regionalist but with a twist. I do believe the genetic dispersal OOA has merit; however, only to the extent that in a very short period of time the African lineage overran the rest of the world post-Toba and that any hybrid combinations would have been "washed out" by genetic drift over scores of generations. We haven't found too many of the dispersal survivors, only some late (24,000bp) Neanderthals and late-surviving Java H. erectus, but already Trinkaus is certain that he has found hybrids. Notice I didn't mention H. floriensis since the jury is still out on the hobbits.

Toba reduced the population of breeding adults in Africa. It probably did the same for H. neanderthalis in Eurasia and H. erectus elsewhere. That event more than likely gave surviving Africans an advantage since they had a sophisticated culture and language going for them in relation to the other groups when they dispersed after 70,000bp. Better communication over long distances was an advantage, and higher rates of breeding probably did the rest. Like anything, this was a case of being in the right place at the right time ... a fortunate occurrence for H. sapiens and not so fortunate for any others.

You know that a very small percentage of increase in birth rates or longevity will result in populations being displaced over a few thousand years. Regardless, I still think there were Neanderthals in the woodpile and some genetic contribution that has yet to surface in a definitive way in the nuclear genome.

Looks like Im gonna have to watch the Toba documentary this weekend.

Forum Monk wrote:Looks like Im gonna have to watch the Toba documentary this weekend.

Me too, Monk. I've always heard that the human species incurred a bottleneck. To keep it straight in my mind, I just go back to the flood story. I really need to watch this.

Cognito wrote:

While we're at it, what is your take on the fact that humans bottlenecked after Toba, and other animals did not? Neandertal is known to have much more genetic variation than HSS.

I think there must be more to the story.

Beags, yes I am a multi-regionalist but with a twist. I do believe the genetic dispersal OOA has merit; however, only to the extent that in a very short period of time the African lineage overran the rest of the world post-Toba and that any hybrid combinations would have been "washed out" by genetic drift over scores of generations. We haven't found too many of the dispersal survivors, only some late (24,000bp) Neanderthals and late-surviving Java H. erectus, but already Trinkaus is certain that he has found hybrids. Notice I didn't mention H. floriensis since the jury is still out on the hobbits.

Toba reduced the population of breeding adults in Africa. It probably did the same for H. neanderthalis in Eurasia and H. erectus elsewhere. That event more than likely gave surviving Africans an advantage since they had a sophisticated culture and language going for them in relation to the other groups when they dispersed after 70,000bp. Better communication over long distances was an advantage, and higher rates of breeding probably did the rest. Like anything, this was a case of being in the right place at the right time ... a fortunate occurrence for H. sapiens and not so fortunate for any others.

You know that a very small percentage of increase in birth rates or longevity will result in populations being displaced over a few thousand years. Regardless, I still think there were Neanderthals in the woodpile and some genetic contribution that has yet to surface in a definitive way in the nuclear genome.

There are many reasons wht HSS is the only hominid on the planet, I agree.

But regarding Toba, and this was not stated in the movie, chimpanzees have more genetic diversity in one troupe than all of mankind. I'm sure I can find that statement. They lived side by side with HS in Africa and yet didn't bottleneck.

It's a mystery. I've looked for the answer without success. Thanks for your take on it.

ok dumb question #..... (i lost count). If the bottleneck was species specific, wouldn't that indicate something specific to that species such as disease, viral, like ebola, hanta, small pox, or some such thing? (if nothing else I am good for dumb questions)

But regarding Toba, and this was not stated in the movie, chimpanzees have more genetic diversity in one troupe than all of mankind. I'm sure I can find that statement. They lived side by side with HS in Africa and yet didn't bottleneck.

It's a mystery. I've looked for the answer without success. Thanks for your take on it.

Beags, aren't you saying that there is more genetic diversity in one troupe of chimpanzees than a few thousand breeding HSS at 74,000bce?

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .Ge.r.html

This story becomes even more interesting when you look at the genetic diversity of Chimpanzees and Bonobos, our nearest relatives. The number of these animals is small compared to ours, but their genetic diversity is much larger than that of our species. In fact, the entire 6 billion member human species has a level of genetic diversity which is on the order of a large chimpanzee population; genetically, our species looks like a subset of the chimpanzee species.

This is not the article I was thinking of Cogs, but it's late. Maybe I can find it tomorrow. Anyway, this one is saying about the same thing.

ravenwing5910 wrote:ok dumb question #..... (i lost count). If the bottleneck was species specific, wouldn't that indicate something specific to that species such as disease, viral, like ebola, hanta, small pox, or some such thing? (if nothing else I am good for dumb questions)

Yes.


But ebola and hanta don't seem able to sustain an outbreak long enough to spread all that far and the population must have been too spread out for something like small pox to spread like that.

T'is a mystery.

Charlie Hatchett wrote:

Minimalist wrote:

Digit wrote:Make that a trio! A few more and we can form a music group!

You can call yourselves the .........

Where's that Neanderthal wind section you posted about six months ago?

the entire 6 billion member human species has a level of genetic diversity which is on the order of a large chimpanzee population

Beags, in this case what is considered "a large chimpanzee population"? About 2,500 breeding adults?