Neanderthal News

[Digit]

The tools of Erectus in Africa were always defined as 'primitive', until a knapper studied them and described them as the fastest way to produce an edge, many being produced at, or close to, a butchery site.
The later explosion in tool variety appears to have occurred with a less nomadic form of existance. This would seem to be completely logical as specialised tools, for stitching for example, could be left at base camp for use when required. So the increase in tool variety and quality doesn't automatically mean an increase in intelligence, meerly the aquisition of more clutter once a home base was established.
A situation that I'm sure we are all familiar with.

[Beagle]

Great discussion. On tool technology I would just add that the leap forward to lighter non-stone technology occurred much later by the Cro-magnon group after co-existing with Neanderthal for many thousands of years. In fact Cro-magnon himself evolved inside the range of Neanderthal.

Now the debate on HNS speech continues to be pretty astounding. I even believe the debate should be moved to their predecessor, Erectus. There are many good arguments regarding speech at that early date - even at 800,000kya.

[Cognito]

Now the debate on HNS speech continues to be pretty astounding. I even believe the debate should be moved to their predecessor, Erectus. There are many good arguments regarding speech at that early date - even at 800,000kya.

Question: How do you build a boat/raft to cross a deep channel of water to arrive on the island of Flores without being able to convey instructions to others in your group about how to build the boat/raft without some sort of verbal communication? Hand puppets? Sneers? Grunts?

I am awash with anticipation, awaiting an answer!:roll:

[Digit]

Well I'd say that one man could build the craft on his own Cog, but he might have serious troubles trying to get others to try the crossing with him without some pretty serious discussions!

[Manystones]

Another quote...

"The standard story here has been Lieberman's and Laitman's argument that important anatomical changes which facilitated the evolutionary emergence of speech occurred in the throat (e.g., Lieberman, Laitman, Reidenberg, & Gannon 1992) and can be identified by examining the shape of the base of the skull. Gibson has shown that Lieberman and Laitman are wrong about the structure of the throat and its relation to the shape of the base of the skull...."

an interesting conference report on the evolution of language.

http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~idavids ... 0proof.pdf

[Beagle]

It seems that two requirements exist for human speech as we know it. First is a developed Broca area in the brain. Erectus skulls have the distinct bulge in that area, indicating that it was actively in use for a long time. Secondly is the need for a hyoid bone near the base of the tongue. I don't think it has been found in Erectus to date.

But since later humans, both HN and HS had one, they probably inherited it from a common ancestor. I'll bet a hyoid bone is eventually found in Erectus remains.

[Manystones]

Well I'd say that one man could build the craft on his own Cog, but he might have serious troubles trying to get others to try the crossing with him without some pretty serious discussions!

I would consider that very unlikely. Bednarik demonstrates that considerable resource and planning would have been required something almost inconceivable without the cooperation of others. I am not a sea-farer but my guess is that physically it would be a struggle for one man to successfully make a crossing of this distance alone.

The use of language whether verbal or non-verbal would seem to have been a pre-requiste for this level of cooperation.

[Manystones]

<snip> Secondly is the need for a hyoid bone near the base of the tongue. I don't think it has been found in Erectus to date.

But since later humans, both HN and HS had one, they probably inherited it from a common ancestor. I'll bet a hyoid bone is eventually found in Erectus remains.

Yes, let's not make too many assumptions on the basis of those taphonomic remnants! Absence of evidence..., etc.

[Beagle]

You betcha!

[john]

1995.

I was spending a little better than a week in Beaune, France; a village pleasantly located in a steep, deep limestone valley and well off the beaten track.

Mind you, I don't speak a lick of French.

That Saturday, I walked up the hill to the limestone ruins of a long abandoned Abbey, and discovered a biggish village yard sale in progress. I later learned that it was a yearly event held to raise money for the local church.

Well, why not? I walked up and down the rows of folding tables.

Nothiing very interesting, until I came across a small meatcleaver, very neatly (hand) made, wonderful steel and edge, perfect balance. 40 francs.

I looked at the matriarch commanding the table - and she was sure enough a matriarch, a big woman, white hair mercilessly pinned to her head, and a suspicious glint in her eye as she observed this stranger with his thumb checking the edge of the cleaver - and hauled out 25 francs and put them on the table. Then I turned both hands outward and palm upward and shrugged, while looking at her directly. She spoke a short fusillade of French, then, realizing I didn't understand, took said cleaver and moved it to her side of the table. OK. I put down another 10 francs. Another comment in French, and she puts her hand out, palm up, and makes the classic up, up, up move. Well hell. I put down the last 5 francs. She says "Bon", which is a word I do understand, gives me a big smile, and hands over the cleaver.

Its still my go-to cleaver in the kitchen.


Who sez you need spoken language for trade?



john

[Cognito]

Boats or rafts would be complex undertakings. How about an entire village dated to 400,000 years ago?



See: http://remotecentral.blogspot.com/2007/ ... -homo.html

What about 400,000 year old javelins? See: http://www.archaeology.org/9705/newsbriefs/spears.html

Or "By 300 or 200 ka ago, at the latest, symbolic abilities had evolved to the point at which H. erectus produced rock art, portable art and beads. Of these forms of symbolic products, beads seem to tell us the most." Bednarik: http://www.semioticon.com/frontline/bednarik.htm

[Forum Monk]

What about 400,000 year old javelins? See: http://www.archaeology.org/9705/newsbriefs/spears.html

From the article:

That early man hunted big game is supported by the recent discovery of a fossilized rhinoceros shoulder blade with a projectile wound at Boxgrove, England, dated to 500,000 years ago. Studies revealed the wound was probably caused by a spear. As paleoanthropologist Wil Roebroeks of the University of Leiden points out, however, "we still haven't determined whether early man hunted in large groups, or whether they used pits to trap the animals first."

The position and angle of the blade which struck this rhinocerous bone, suggests a spear struck the animal from above. No one is sure, if this resulted from a thrown missle or if the bearer of the weapon was above the animal (i.e. it had fallen or was in a pit). If early man was heaving spears prior to the upper paleolithic age, it would upset the club. (The club says, lower and middle paleo hominids carried their spears and attacked from close range).

[Digit]

Absolutely John, this has been borne out by the trading links between whites and NA Indians who certainly did not communicate by speech initially, but would you undertake even a canoe trip with people who couldn't talk to each other? Bit risky I would suggest.

[kbs2244]

I think one of the differences, in the technical world, as opposed to common usage, between a javelin and a spear is whether it is meant to be thrown.

Note the use of the word “javelin” when the weapons were found to be point end heavy. Like an arrow, the shaft is just there to provide a handle. The heavy front end provides the guidance and injury.

But a “spear” is meant to be held and used to repeatedly jab with. Think of the Roman “turtle” battle formation with the shield men in the front row and the second row made up of spear men with the spears passing in between the guys in the front row. The guys in front provided a wall while the guys in back did the killing.

[kbs2244]

BTW Digit:
Didn’t the early whites in NA speak to the natives in Welsh?