Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Right now, I'm pretty doubtful that any of the ancients had an understanding of precession. I'll remain hopeful.Digit wrote:Bit late in replying on your post Beag about evidence of POE, if the first known evidence is a written record I'll hazard a guess that it was way out of date. With precession taking over 70 yrs per arc degree either sombody rushed into print or they were reporting what was already widely known amongst the astrologers.
Right. I wonder where they are? Probably the British Museum. I'll just pop up there and prise open a few crates then!Forum Monk wrote:So maybe forget about Indus valley for awhile and concentrate on Mesopotamia because if the Hebrews copied the text at the library of Asshurbanipal and if they were aware of an astrological age concept then it must have predated the 8th century BC.
There were 1000s of fragments of records removed from the ruins in Nineveh. I understand many are in crates and have never been studied.
I think the Sphinx as Lion may be a red herring. I'm not convinced that it is a Lion, or was originally a Lion. So maybe that's why the Crab is ignored. It's just the iconography doesn't stretch back that far.
The lion was an iconic symbol in Mesopotamia, but after the Lion came the Crab, the Twins, then the Bull, then Aries and Pisces. Everyone has basically ignored the Crab and Gemini.
So it wasn't a completely wasted evening, then!Beagle wrote:
But the more I read the RVeda, the more convinced I am of it's antiquity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchushe certainly made use of the observations and perhaps the mathematical techniques accumulated over centuries by the Chaldeans from Babylonia .....
So in the light of all this, I think if we want to take an educated guess on who discovered precession, it's looking bad for Hipparchus and extremely rosy for the Chaldeans (Assyro-Babylonians).
....Earlier Greek astronomers and mathematicians were influenced by Babylonian astronomy to some extent, for instance the period relations of the Metonic cycle and Saros cycle may have come from Babylonian sources.
Hipparchus seems to have been the first to exploit Babylonian astronomical knowledge and techniques systematically. Except for Timocharis and Aristillus, he was the first Greek known to divide the circle in 360 degrees of 60 arc minutes (Eratosthenes before him used a simpler sexagesimal system dividing a circle into 60 parts). He also used the Babylonian unit pechus ("cubit") of about 2° or 2.5°.
Hipparchus probably compiled a list of Babylonian astronomical observations; G. Toomer, a historian of astronomy, has suggested that Ptolemy's knowledge of eclipse records and other Babylonian observations in the Almagest came from a list made by Hipparchus.
Hipparchus' use of Babylonian sources has always been known in a general way, because of Ptolemy's statements. However, Franz Xaver Kugler demonstrated that the synodic and anomalistic periods that Ptolemy attributes to Hipparchus had already been used in Babylonian ephemerides, specifically the collection of texts nowadays called "System B" (sometimes attributed to Kidinnu).
I guess Assurbanipal's destroyed library was a victim of the ruin and utter desolation 'foretold', but that actually took place in 625 BC, huh!First mentioned in Gen. 10:11, which is rendered in the Revised Version, "He [i.e., Nimrod] went forth into Assyria and builded Nineveh."
It is not again noticed till the days of Jonah, when it is described (Jonah 3:3; 4:11) as a great and populous city, the flourishing capital of the Assyrian empire (2 Kings 19:36; Isa. 37:37).
The book of the prophet Nahum is almost exclusively taken up with prophetic denunciations against this city. Its ruin and utter desolation are foretold (Nah.1:14; 3:19, etc.). Zephaniah also (2:13-15) predicts its destruction along with the fall of the empire of which it was the capital.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questi ... number=570
There are some claims that the Sumerians also measured precession .... It seems to be based on the fact that they counted in multiples of 60 and that the length of the precession cycle is 26,000 years which is about 60*1200*360/1000 years. The 1200 and 360 also have some significance in Sumerian culture - interestingly the Sumerians gave us the degree (360 in a circle - they also had 360 days in their year) and the second/minute (there being 60 of them is no coincidence).
Another of the historical anachronisms which helps scholars date the bible to the 7th century. Finkelstein will be so proud....and Arch will be so pissed!Ishtar wrote:We decided that I should see if there is any connection between the Jews and Nineveh and the library there of Assurbanipal.
Well, they must have known about it - and possibly also its ruin - when compiling the OT as Nineveh is mentioned several times:
http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?dic ... rd=Nineveh
I guess Assurbanipal's destroyed library was a victim of the ruin and utter desolation 'foretold', but that actually took place in 625 BC, huh!First mentioned in Gen. 10:11, which is rendered in the Revised Version, "He [i.e., Nimrod] went forth into Assyria and builded Nineveh."
It is not again noticed till the days of Jonah, when it is described (Jonah 3:3; 4:11) as a great and populous city, the flourishing capital of the Assyrian empire (2 Kings 19:36; Isa. 37:37).
The book of the prophet Nahum is almost exclusively taken up with prophetic denunciations against this city. Its ruin and utter desolation are foretold (Nah.1:14; 3:19, etc.). Zephaniah also (2:13-15) predicts its destruction along with the fall of the empire of which it was the capital.
http://www.bibleorigins.net/Genesisarch ... alies.htmlIn Genesis' so-called "Table of Nations," (Ge 10) mention is made of the leading cities of Assyria. Taking pride of place in being first mentioned is Nineveh followed by Rehoboth-ir, Calah and Resen (Ge 10:10). Of the four cities only Nineveh and Calah have been archaeologically identified and excavated.
Grayson makes the following observations about Nineveh and Calah (ABD is The Anchor Bible Dictionary. Doubleday. 1992. 6 Volumes, edited by David Noel Freedman) :
"In the 7th century BC the city of Nineveh was transformed from being a major metropolis in Assyria to being the capital of the entire country and empire. This was result of a decision by Sennacherib (704-681 BC)...In choosing Nineveh as his capital, Sennacherib launched a massive rebuilding program there...The transformed city was surrounded by an enormous wall...Thereafter Nineveh remained the capital of Assyria until the fall of the empire and the capture of the city itself in 612 BC by a coalition of Medes and Babylonians." (ABD 4.1119, "Nineveh," A. Kirk Grayson)
"Calah was of no significance in the 3d and 2d millenium BC. It was singled out for importance only in the 9th century BC when Assurnasirpal II chose it as his capital. Assurnasirpal totally transformed the insignificant village into a metropolis which was suitable to the center of the empire he created...Calah remained the administrative center of Assyria until about 700 BC. At that time other cities were chosen as capitals, and eventually Nineveh became the chief city." (ABD 1.808 "Calah," A. Kirk Grayson)
Grayson's articles point out that Calah was the capital of Assyria during the 9th-7th centuries BCE until it was succeeded by Nineveh which became Assyria's capital during the reign of Sennacherib (BCE) in the 7th century. I suspect that the reason Calah was not given "pride of first mention" in Genesis is that during the time period of this book's composition it wasn't the capital, Nineveh was. If my hunch is correct this would suggest that Genesis can be no earlier than the 7th century BCE when Nineveh became "the number one or most prominent" city of Assyria.
Brilliant, Min!Minimalist wrote:Genesis can be no earlier than the 7th century BCE when Nineveh became "the number one or most prominent" city of Assyria.
Ishtar wrote:Brilliant, Min!Minimalist wrote:Genesis can be no earlier than the 7th century BCE when Nineveh became "the number one or most prominent" city of Assyria.
What about Exodus? Is there anything on this, as we're trying to date Moses.
Whilst your point about farmers knowing when to do what is true, I'm curious about the second part of the statement. If by 'people that sit at desks' you're referring to other sections of a society who are, in part reliant upon those farmers, then fair enough (you mention priests so I assume this is the case). I'm hoping you don't mean an idea imposed by anthropologists long after the fact because that is demonstrably wrong at least in the case of (sorry) you know where. I've already set some of this down so I'll quote the relevant bits:kbs2244 wrote:The Maya knew of the Precession.
Note that it shouldn’t take very long for a careful star watcher to figure it out.
http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html
But the concept that calendars are needed by farmers to know when to plant, harvest, etc is just plain silly. It was invented by people that sit at desks and stand in front of blackboards. Not by anyone who has ever earned a living by growing things.
It only takes a few seasons in a given area before you know the time is right by weather and wild growth around you. You can “feel it in your bones,” and “smell it in the air.” I spent much of my youth on farms. Some of the old timers planted by phases of the moon, but no one cared about the equinox.
Now, a priest hood needing to know when such things happened, in order to show a connection with the gods, is another story.
and also... this passage is actually discussing candidates for the ilhuitl festival containing the year-bearer day, but the references are relevant, particularly the quote from Sahagun (16th century) which specifically acknowledges the agricultural import of named seasons. It is worth noting that Izcalli, the first ilhuitl festival period after the end of the frost season translates as 'growth' or 'sprout'.The Xiuhpohualli (or sometimes Xiuhtlapohualli) calendar encompasses the familiar territory of a 365 day solar year, in this instance comprising not of twelve months, but of eighteen festival periods each of twenty days duration, with the full count of 365 made up by five supplementary days. The Spanish referred to the eighteen festival periods as veintenas (from veinte meaning twenty in reference to their length) although the more appropriate Nahuatl term is ilhuitl (or ilhuilhuiuh in the plural).
Each ilhuitl was dedicated to prevailing social engagements appropriate to the time of year, so accordingly each one came with its own attendant coterie of Gods or Goddesses related to said engagements. Certain ilhuilhuiuh were devoted to agriculture, marking out the most propitious times for planting or harvesting, with all due celebrations carried out in service to the Deities presiding over the same; others were tied into annual political or economic cycles - the waging of war or the gathering of tribute.
Indigenous accounts regarding the temporal location of the year-bearer vary as wildly as those of when the indigenous year began. In the case of the latter issue it is likely that disparate answers were given to a question that did not make a great deal of sense in terms of the Nahua-Mexica calendar, and responses may have been given in relation to the variant beginning of the Xiuhpohualli year, the Tonalpohualli year, the ilhuilhuiuh year, or any of the other definitions of a year by which hunters, farmers, politicians, or astronomers marked time. After all, our own January the first falls during winter and not contemporaneous to its beginning, the financial year commences in April, and if we define a Gregorian year purely as divisions of spring, summer, autumn, and winter it could be argued that the year has nothing consistent with either a beginning or an end.
Therefore the year-bearer date has been attributed to both the first and last days of the year bearing its name. With this in mind, it is in theory only necessary to examine those days which might constitute the Yei Calli year-bearer in order to see which might be the most likely candidate. F1.3.8 (3rd of May) appears quite unsatisfactory as the beginning of any definition of a year. F2.7.8 (18th of January) might be a more likely candidate being as it may be deemed to occur in the general temporal vicinity of one interpretation of the year's end, namely Izcalli (F2.7) - the first ilhuitl following the traditional six ilhuilhuiuh of frost referred to in the Florentine Codex (VII, 61):
"Cold comes once a year, in Ochpaniztli, it begins in Ochpaniztli. And for six feasts, six score days, the cold lasts. And then it ends, finishes, in Tititl. When that happened, they said: 'The frost has gone, now there will be sowing, it's sowing time, now earth will be planted, it's planting time; it's warm, mild, calm; the hour is good, right, at hand, imminent, here. They hurried and pressed on, restless, anxious, busy, worried, there was no let up; days would fly by. Anew they worked the fields..."
