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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:17 am
by Ciko

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:26 am
by stellarchaser
I think that we would getting more and more interesting archeological news as time goes by.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:54 am
by stellarchaser
zagor wrote:
Ciko wrote: i am waiting for more info from conferance
In meantime on a moment forget the pyramids and take a look in these beautifl picture from BiH and Croatia.

http://www.sarajevo-x.com/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0

http://www.gorskikotar.hr/pages/bijele- ... ar_jpg.htm

enjoy
Thank you for this! it's really nice rest for the eyes and brain :D

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:04 am
by Frank Harrist
That is some beautiful country.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:17 am
by stellarchaser
Frank Harrist wrote:That is some beautiful country.
And very interesting country from history's point of view. The reason why osmanagich was saying that alleged pyramids could date back to last ice age (12.000) has some reason in it.

Bosnia is mountain country; having in mind that surrounding regions consist of low flat land (Croatia and Hungary on the north, and Serbia on the east) Bosnia (and montain part of Croatia on the west) could be possibly excellent refuge place for humans during and after last ice age.

They could seek refuge on the top of the mountains, while lower parts would be under water and ice. Some recent genetic research are suggesting that apprx. 50 % of todays population in Croatia and Bosnia are there in last 27.000 years. I'm not expert, so I can't explain methods and all, but it was in the news. They were tracking one part of the gene or something. And that research was done by UN I think, all over the world, in order to get the picture of past human movings.

Furthermore, on the Adriatic coasts of croatia and Bosnia there are monolithic fortresses. Scientists are saying that they were built by Illirians, but not much work has been done there. Few such megalith fortressess are near Visochica Hill, i.e. between Visochica and adriatic coast.

There are numerous reported legends and rumors that people spotted docking chains on the rocks high in the mountains. but as I said, due to many reasons (long and constant foreign rule,lack of money) Bosnia is still archeologically unresearched. My home town is called Banja Luka and it means Bath Harbour. We know why "Bath" - in the hills above the town is natural Bath (hot water spring) known from roman times, where they made Bath for citizens. But why Harbour? There is a river going from through town, but it is too small to have any harbour. But if in the past water level was much higher, some ancient Harbour could have exist there. So all we have now is strange name preserved from ancient times. Just to say that my town is some 300 km from adriatic coast.

And just to add that most of the mediaeval bosnian towns were situated on the top of the hills or mountains (just as you seeon the 16th picture on this page). Same as Visoko Old Town on Visochica. There is posibility that people from mediaeval times just continue to build on earlier settlements.

http://www.sarajevo-x.com/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0

Water level we think was much higher that today.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:35 am
by Guest
those pictures were just terrible and not conclusive enough. besides the blocks look only big enough for a retaining wall not a pyramid.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:13 am
by Essan
stellarchaser wrote:
Bosnia (and montain part of Croatia on the west) could be possibly excellent refuge place for humans during and after last ice age.

They could seek refuge on the top of the mountains, while lower parts would be under water and ice.
Actually, the mountains may well have been under snow and ice. The valleys and more specifically the coiast would ahve been the obvious place for any settlement. Much of the Adriatic would have been dry. Any evidence fo people living in the region during the ice age is most likely now under water.
Some recent genetic research are suggesting that apprx. 50 % of todays population in Croatia and Bosnia are there in last 27.000 years.
Well unless they have DNA from someone living in the region 27,000 years ago that's impossible to prove. And as far as I'm aware there is no evidence - let alone bones - of anyone living in the region at the height of the last Glacial. I suspect somewhere along the line someone has misunderstood the results of the DNA studies.

There are numerous reported legends and rumors that people spotted docking chains on the rocks high in the mountains. but as I said, due to many reasons (long and constant foreign rule,lack of money) Bosnia is still archeologically unresearched. My home town is called Banja Luka and it means Bath Harbour. We know why "Bath" - in the hills above the town is natural Bath (hot water spring) known from roman times, where they made Bath for citizens. But why Harbour? There is a river going from through town, but it is too small to have any harbour. But if in the past water level was much higher, some ancient Harbour could have exist there.
Sea levels used to be lower, not higher.
So all we have now is strange name preserved from ancient times. Just to say that my town is some 300 km from adriatic coast.
It's possible there may have been a lake there at some point, I suppose. I don't know the topography to be able to say.
And just to add that most of the mediaeval bosnian towns were situated on the top of the hills or mountains (just as you seeon the 16th picture on this page). Same as Visoko Old Town on Visochica. There is posibility that people from mediaeval times just continue to build on earlier settlements.

Water level we think was much higher that today.
They were built on hilltops for defensive reasons - same as across the rest of Europe. Sea levels have not been higher in modern geological times. And they most certainly weren't any different (well, give or take a few feet) when these settlements etc were built

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:27 am
by stellarchaser
Essan wrote:
stellarchaser wrote:
Bosnia (and montain part of Croatia on the west) could be possibly excellent refuge place for humans during and after last ice age.

They could seek refuge on the top of the mountains, while lower parts would be under water and ice.
Actually, the mountains may well have been under snow and ice. The valleys and more specifically the coiast would ahve been the obvious place for any settlement. Much of the Adriatic would have been dry. Any evidence fo people living in the region during the ice age is most likely now under water.
Some recent genetic research are suggesting that apprx. 50 % of todays population in Croatia and Bosnia are there in last 27.000 years.
Well unless they have DNA from someone living in the region 27,000 years ago that's impossible to prove. And as far as I'm aware there is no evidence - let alone bones - of anyone living in the region at the height of the last Glacial. I suspect somewhere along the line someone has misunderstood the results of the DNA studies.

There are numerous reported legends and rumors that people spotted docking chains on the rocks high in the mountains. but as I said, due to many reasons (long and constant foreign rule,lack of money) Bosnia is still archeologically unresearched. My home town is called Banja Luka and it means Bath Harbour. We know why "Bath" - in the hills above the town is natural Bath (hot water spring) known from roman times, where they made Bath for citizens. But why Harbour? There is a river going from through town, but it is too small to have any harbour. But if in the past water level was much higher, some ancient Harbour could have exist there.
Sea levels used to be lower, not higher.
So all we have now is strange name preserved from ancient times. Just to say that my town is some 300 km from adriatic coast.
It's possible there may have been a lake there at some point, I suppose. I don't know the topography to be able to say.
And just to add that most of the mediaeval bosnian towns were situated on the top of the hills or mountains (just as you seeon the 16th picture on this page). Same as Visoko Old Town on Visochica. There is posibility that people from mediaeval times just continue to build on earlier settlements.

Water level we think was much higher that today.
They were built on hilltops for defensive reasons - same as across the rest of Europe. Sea levels have not been higher in modern geological times. And they most certainly weren't any different (well, give or take a few feet) when these settlements etc were built
What if Velikovsky was right and the earth changed it's axis under influence of some cosmic event? Than we are not talking about normal geological proccess, but catastrophy that forced every atom on the earth to change its movement.

Obviously, such scenario would create global tidal wave, or tzunami and immediate change of climate, as well the breakage of earth core. If Velikovsky was right, then we can expect that "water has withdrawn" as Bible says after the flood. Withdrawn to the poles. In this case, water levels in the past must have been higher. Same as they will be higher again, if pols are melted.

Everywhere in the world are signs of dramatic changes, not evolutionary slow proccess of peacefull change. Take parts of Washington states for example, which was confusing scientists for decades. Now it's known that this part of Washington states was formed by huge flood.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:42 am
by Essan
stellarchaser wrote:
Take parts of Washington states for example, which was confusing scientists for decades. Now it's known that this part of Washington states was formed by huge flood.
Yes, we know that the Scablands of east Washington were caused by a succession of catastrophic flood events caused by the collapse of ice dams holding back Glacial Lake Missoula.

No-one denies that such events occurred, at different times and in different places. However, there is no evidence for any such flooding events in the Mediteranean regions.

All available evidence points to sea levels being lower, not higher and for no such cataclysm as suggested by the likes of Velikowsky having occurred.

btw getting back to those iron rings (which I've heard of a few times) - does anyone know why there are no pictures of them? Surely if we could see them and where they're positioned we might be able to determine what they were used for?

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:53 am
by stellarchaser
Essan wrote:
stellarchaser wrote:
Take parts of Washington states for example, which was confusing scientists for decades. Now it's known that this part of Washington states was formed by huge flood.
Yes, we know that the Scablands of east Washington were caused by a succession of catastrophic flood events caused by the collapse of ice dams holding back Glacial Lake Missoula.

No-one denies that such events occurred, at different times and in different places. However, there is no evidence for any such flooding events in the Mediteranean regions.

All available evidence points to sea levels being lower, not higher and for no such cataclysm as suggested by the likes of Velikowsky having occurred.




All available evidence points to sea levels being lower, not higher and for no such cataclysm as suggested by the likes of Velikowsky having occurred.

I hope you'll agree with me that fossils are proof of catastrophic event. In the nature, bodies rotten or are eaten by other living beings. In order for body to be preserved as fossil, it must instanly be covered by layers (earth, ash,lava) which are preventing the oxygene to start rotting proccess. Secondly, fossills are very often found in herds, with younger and older members of species, which also proves that they died in a catastrophic event. And such are findings all over the world. yes,it can be that those were different catastrophs in different times, but still we see that the past of our planet wasn't so peaceful. Velikovsky said that some cosmic event (comet,huge meteor or something simmilar) changed Earth's axis. If that occured, it was global catastrophe.

btw getting back to those iron rings (which I've heard of a few times) - does anyone know why there are no pictures of them? Surely if we could see them and where they're positioned we might be able to determine what they were used for?


I'm affraid that these iron rings became "story" just recently,although stories and legends about them are known long time in Bosnia. I think some research team should be formed to examine these stories and claims. So far there are no proofs of it. Simply no one researched it properly.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:03 am
by stellarchaser
[quote="Essan

Well unless they have DNA from someone living in the region 27,000 years ago that's impossible to prove. And as far as I'm aware there is no evidence - let alone bones - of anyone living in the region at the height of the last Glacial. I suspect somewhere along the line someone has misunderstood the results of the DNA studies.
[/quote]

I really can't anwer this, because I'm not an expert. It was here in the news (Croatia and Bosnia) that UN made genetic research, and that this genetic research was resulted by these results. I can't say how they got these results. They just said that they found some part of DNA which proves that 50 % of Croatians and Bosnians were here for last 27.000 years. Or, in other words, that they haven't been moving anywhere from here in this period.

Allegedly, Un made this research on global level, not only here.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:44 am
by Paul H.
Paul you still mixing "apples and pears" in your examples. Did you ever hear about Dinaric Karst or Dinaric Alpine?
Yes, I have heard of "Dinaric Karst and Dinaric Alpine".

Yes. But both are totally irrelevant to this discussion. The 1:500000 scale Geological Map of SFR Yugoslavia published in 1970 by the Federal Geological Institute in Belgrade shows that the Visoko Region, Bosnia and Herzegovina, lacks the solidly cemented carbonates rocks needed for the development of classic Dinaric Karst. Instead, the bedrock underlying the intramountain basin, in which the Visoko Region lies, consists, as documented by this map, of Miocene lake deposits, which accumulated in this intramountain basin sometime between 5.3 to 23 million years ago. The units within the area of Visocica Hill are labeled "M1,2"; "M2"; "M2,3"; and "M3". The suffixe "M" designates rocks of Miocene age. The prefixes indicate oldest to youngest strata starting with 1 = Lower; 2 = Middle; and 3 = Upper. The two geologic units comprising the Bosnian "pyramids" are "M2,3" and "M2". According to the available published literature and other geologists, whom I have consulted, Unit "M2,3" consists of Middle to Upper Miocene "Lasva conglomerate", which contains an interlayered mixture of conglomerate, sandstone, and marlstone along with some clay and coal. As indicated by the ovals in the pattern for this unit, it contains a significant amount of conglomerate. The pebbles, found within these conglomerates, consist of limestone, sandstone, other sedimentary rocks and various igneous and metamorphic rocks derived from the adjacent mountains. Unit "M2" consists of Middle Miocene marl, sandstone, and clay along with some coal. The local bedrock is not suited to the large-scale development of the classic karst, which you refer to although some very small-scale dissolution features might form as the result of dissolution of the marlstones and carbonate gravel in the conglerates. The Dinaric Karst occurs in the limestones, dolomites, and marbles of the mountains surrounding the intramountain basin, in which the Visoko Region lies.

In addition, the fact that people use limestone to build structures does nothing to contradict another established fact that natural jointing can produce some rather nice rectangular blocks, which people can confused with man-made stonework. In one outcrop, the below pictures of a wave cut bench, where the soil, normally covering and hiding such jointed bedrock has been stripped off, show that natural jointing can produce multiple layers of generally rectilinear blocks of jointed bedrock lying on top of each other.

Tesellated Pavement
http://www.mso.anu.edu.au/~kim/photos/t ... 3.jpg.html

November 20th, Tessellated Pavement
http://www.mvermeulen.com/oneyear/Photo ... y7/735.htm

Photos from the 30th Annual IAMSLIC Conference -
http://www.library.ucsb.edu/internal/li ... 000-16.jpg
(From http://www.library.ucsb.edu/internal/li ... slic3.html )

The above pictures of the Tasmanian Tessellated pavement show multiple layers of sedimentary rock, which have been naturally fractured into generally rectangular blocks that lie as layers on top of each other.

Whether bedrock jointing is found in the United Kingdom, Tasmania, Wyoming, the Dinaric Alpine, the Visoko Region, or elsewhere, the same basic laws of physics and rock mechanics apply and jointing will form in according to type, strength, and direction of the forces applied to a layer of sedimentary rock. As a result, it is all the same "apples" and there is no scientific reason to disqualify an example because of location. The main factor is being able to find where bedrock is exposed and person can see it without the overlying soil hiding it. This can happen either by people artificially stripping the soil off the underlying bedrock or where the natural development of wave cut benches have stripped soil and bedrock, normally hiding the jointing, and exposing joint systems where we can see them. Arid climates are also good locations to find examples of jointed bedrock because they contain large areas of bedrock exposed without a thick soil cover.

It would be an interesting experiment to visit and examined the bedrock exposed quarries or borrow pits, which have been dug in local Miocene bedrock and in Miocene deposits filling adjacent intramountain basins.

Paul H.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:02 pm
by Paul H.
If these are man-made stone blocks, then I have collected pictures from the Internet, which show that the Bosnians, who made these blocks, visited Tasmania and built a wharf, which is slowly being eroded by thes sea. :-) :-) :-).

These pictures can be seen at:

1. http://www.mso.anu.edu.au/~kim/photos/tassie/t03.jpg

2. http://www.mvermeulen.com/oneyear/Photo ... y7/735.jpg

3. http://www.library.ucsb.edu/internal/li ... 000-16.jpg

Similar "Bosnian" stonework can be found all over the Southwestern United States as seen in:

1. http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/cedar-mesa.JPEG

2. http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/utig-t ... age011.jpg

Finally, I have pictures of stone blocks from Catahoula Parish, Louisiana, which I found and photographed, while in field mapping the geology of the Aimwell 7.5 minute topgraphic quadrangle, which are far more rectangular then the pictures posted by Ciko above. Maybe I should invite Dr. Barakat and Mr. Osmanagic over to see the evdience of the Bosnians, who built their pyramids, having visited Louisiana? :-) :-) :-)

Seriously, the people posting pictures like these to the Internet need to read "Are Straight Lines and Rectangular Blocks Always Man-Made?" at:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1,37 ... msg-370789 .

Also, they should read and look at figure 1 in:

Bai, T., Maerten, L., Gross, M. R., and Aydin, A., 2002,
Orthogonal cross joints: Do they imply a regional stress rotation?:
Journal of Structural Geology. vol. 24, pp. 77-88.

This paper can be downloaded from:

http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/geo ... G_2002.pdf

The basic laws physics and rock mechanics, decsribed and illustrated in the above paper, apply to Bosnia.

Paul H.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:22 pm
by stellarchaser
Paul H. wrote:
If these are "stone blocks", then I have collected pictures from the Internet, which show that the Bosnians, who made these blocks, visited Tasmania and built a wharf, which is slowly being eroded by thes sea. :-) :-) :-)

These pictures can be seen at:

1. http://www.mso.anu.edu.au/~kim/photos/tassie/t03.jpg

2. http://www.mvermeulen.com/oneyear/Photo ... y7/735.jpg

3. http://www.library.ucsb.edu/internal/li ... 000-16.jpg

Similar "Bosnian" stonework can be found all over the Southwestern United States as seen in:

1. http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/cedar-mesa.JPEG

2. http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/utig-t ... age011.jpg

Seriously, the people posting pictures like these to the Internet need to read "Are Straight Lines and Rectangular Blocks Always Man-Made?" at:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1,37 ... msg-370789 .

Also, they should read and look at figure 1 in:

Bai, T., Maerten, L., Gross, M. R., and Aydin, A., 2002,
Orthogonal cross joints: Do they imply a regional stress rotation?:
Journal of Structural Geology. vol. 24, pp. 77-88.

This paper can be downloaded from:

http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/geo ... G_2002.pdf

The basic laws physics and rock mechanics, decsribed and illustrated in the above paper, apply to Bosnia.

Paul H.
Dear Paul H.

obviously you're geologist with large knowledge, and I was reading your text here about alleged bosnian stone balls with great interest, and if it means anything to you, I learned a lot from that text.

But I have the feeling that for each picture you see from Visochica Hill, you post simmilar geological "example" allegedly proving it's not man-made.

What I want to say is that your arguments can be appliable to any square stone block found anywhere in the world and on any archeological excavations. As long that it's square, it can be natural, right? That proves nothing. Because it can be man made, too. And the opposite, of course.

If man is making square stones, and nature is making square stones (obviously they both do), there must be reliable and experienced scientist, or better to say science, who will determine what is man made and what is natural. And I believe it can be done only at the spot or through scientific analysis (of which you know much more than me of course). In other words, it's pointless to deny or confirm nature of these blocks before that analysis is done.

Now we seeing that they are getting some real archeological artefacts (monoliths with inscriptions, standing wall). So the story of Visochica is not that simple. As any other geological or archeological site. Although Barakat said his opinion, he also suggested that team of international geologists should examine Visochica site. El Hadidi said the same. And that is what we need there.

Serious team of experts who will determine nature of these blocks.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:38 pm
by Minimalist
The Romans made round stone ammunition for use in their ballistas, as noted in these excavated at Petra. The Greeks also knew how to do this and depending on the size of the seige engine involved, some could get quite large.

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Anthro ... tions.html

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Anthro ... age011.jpg

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Anthro ... age012.gif
One of our 2004 objectives was to better understand the stratigraphy related to the 55 ballista balls found in the north gallery of the Propylaeum West in 2002. Sara Karz Reid supervised the Propylaeum West excavations of Special Project 87 in the sub floor of the north gallery area west of Room 1 in the Propylaeum West, and between the Portico Wall to the north, and the bench abutting the north side of Wall K to the south. [7]SP87 measures 1.96m north south-by-7.66m east west. The goal was to clarify the relationship between the ceramic floor tile surface and the deposit of ballista balls discovered during the excavation of Trench 87 in 2002.

A series of shallow test trenches clearly indicated that this area was the staging for a conflict, for 363 additional ballista balls were recovered as well as 162 arrowheads and two bronze cheek pieces. Shown above are the ballista balls numbered in situ. Each ballista ball was weighed and presently is in the process of being analyzed. The total number of ballistas from Great Temple deposits is 423 missiles. One of our many queries is if these missiles were stored in the Propylaeum West in preparation for an attack (Joukowsky 2003:396) or were the result of attack. Clearly some sort of offensive action was anticipated or had taken place. Many questions remain for the interpretation of this weaponry.