The reason I asked about the colour DB is I couldn't understand what I was supposed to be seeing. Without a forced draught you can still get metal red hot if its cross section is small enough.
Try a sewing needle and a candle!
But as you point out, JP fuel does not on its own burn very hot, but with other materials you could get a hell of a hot flame. Look what happens when you mix iron and aluminum and ignite it.
I doubt very much if anybody has ever attempted to replicate all the debris in combination from the TTs and ignite it.
Ancient Agriculture
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
That's red hot Digit, but its not orange much less yellow hot. And common. They didnt build the WTC outta sheet metal.
Now, why would this question of sheetmetal even occur to you? The jaws of the shovel picking the metal up would have deformed it, which you would have thot of immediately, rather than going on to think of a needle in a candle flame. Which, because of the relatively low mass to high surface gets red hot immediately.
If, as you suggest, it was sheetmetal, then the heat would have dissipated by the time the shovel got there to pick it up.
All this begins, of course, with the premise- given you by the mass media, of what went on on 9/11/01, And as the above studies on group think show, you endeavor to restrict your own thinking to accomodate the consensus, and therefore seek reasons you should not believe your own eyes.
If you had not made that mental search, you would not have posed the question cause everyone knows you dont build skyscrapers outta sheetmetal.
Epictetus noted that when a man demonstrated he was wrong, Epictetus was grateful to no longer be thinking wrongly. But Epictetus went on, that when he performed the service for another, the man always went away angry. But thinking on this, I recall that Epictetus was educated in Greek, and he often cites Greek philosophers. And among the Greeks, their notion was that ideas were not personal property, but gifts of the Muses.
Ideas could, therefore, be defended or attacked dispassionately. Because the power elite profits from ideas, it uses the mass media to manipulate the ideas people can have. It does this very effectively so long as the economic pie keeps getting bigger. But the proverbial shit hits the fan as soon as that expansion stops and it no long can convince people that things will be better for them later.
I frankly dont care whether 911 is unraveled in the public mind or not. It'd be more socially useful to get the liberal social scientists to admit the power of DNA to defeat every effort they have made to ameliorate the suffering of the lower classes. Aristotle said the Semites were Chaloric. And now with the DNA data, we see he was right.
At 68, it hardly matters to me whether I die quickly from violence or slowly from debilitating old age. For me, all this is no more than an interesting mental exercise.
Now, why would this question of sheetmetal even occur to you? The jaws of the shovel picking the metal up would have deformed it, which you would have thot of immediately, rather than going on to think of a needle in a candle flame. Which, because of the relatively low mass to high surface gets red hot immediately.
If, as you suggest, it was sheetmetal, then the heat would have dissipated by the time the shovel got there to pick it up.
All this begins, of course, with the premise- given you by the mass media, of what went on on 9/11/01, And as the above studies on group think show, you endeavor to restrict your own thinking to accomodate the consensus, and therefore seek reasons you should not believe your own eyes.
If you had not made that mental search, you would not have posed the question cause everyone knows you dont build skyscrapers outta sheetmetal.
Epictetus noted that when a man demonstrated he was wrong, Epictetus was grateful to no longer be thinking wrongly. But Epictetus went on, that when he performed the service for another, the man always went away angry. But thinking on this, I recall that Epictetus was educated in Greek, and he often cites Greek philosophers. And among the Greeks, their notion was that ideas were not personal property, but gifts of the Muses.
Ideas could, therefore, be defended or attacked dispassionately. Because the power elite profits from ideas, it uses the mass media to manipulate the ideas people can have. It does this very effectively so long as the economic pie keeps getting bigger. But the proverbial shit hits the fan as soon as that expansion stops and it no long can convince people that things will be better for them later.
I frankly dont care whether 911 is unraveled in the public mind or not. It'd be more socially useful to get the liberal social scientists to admit the power of DNA to defeat every effort they have made to ameliorate the suffering of the lower classes. Aristotle said the Semites were Chaloric. And now with the DNA data, we see he was right.
At 68, it hardly matters to me whether I die quickly from violence or slowly from debilitating old age. For me, all this is no more than an interesting mental exercise.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
I agree with everything you say DB, accept one, I never mentioned sheet metal! I couldn't recognise what had been heated nor to what color, hence my question.
When committees come down on the side of the 'magic bullet' I too loose faith in them.
I take it the steel you are refering to is the steel frame work of the TTs, if that is so then I doubt that it would color at all unless some other material than JP fuel was involved.
As I pointed out, Iron and Aluminum equals Thermite! Nasty stuff!
When committees come down on the side of the 'magic bullet' I too loose faith in them.
I take it the steel you are refering to is the steel frame work of the TTs, if that is so then I doubt that it would color at all unless some other material than JP fuel was involved.
As I pointed out, Iron and Aluminum equals Thermite! Nasty stuff!
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
More to the point really is group think. Not only the result of the media hype, but the mindframe of the people who are, as they see it, trying to cooperate with the government in what they see as a dangerous political situation.
Add a little stress & ambiguity, mix well, and the power of perceived authority goes without question. But what else would you expect of a population that believes in an almighty god with a 'divine plan'?
Once you believe your own eyes, and realize that that hunk of steel was not heated with jet fuel, a whole host of ambiguities open up, among which is, what would a population that realized it was lied to in such a monstrous way do? Nobody wants to think about that.
The lessons of the ruins of ancient civilizations revealed by archeology are numerous enough to give great cause for concern, but without any plan, divine or otherwise, to cope with the revolution that would prolly result.
The cognitive dissonance of 911, hubbard's peak oil, ethanol, DNA driven behavior patterns, dietary deficit and contamination impairing mental development, uncontrolled immigration, fiscal unsustainablity, middle class income level & now the housing market... and many other issues give rise to the phrase "The Untied States of Denial" as a meme which could take off at any time if any of the above issues reaches a critical stage.
Archeology shows the fall of power elites as far back as we can trace to be very precipitous with one exception that comes to mind, ie Anatolia. Hodder does not report on any point in the abandonment where there is evidence of revolution. His chart shows a dozen cities abandoned at the end of the 7th mil with a few others founded, as if the refugees remaining at the dozen gathered at some few new locations.
It was all so gradual in contrast to the devastation and vandalism seen so often in other declines. I'm sure matriarchy had something to do with it. I am sure also that many left for newer communities in the floodplains of the rivers that emptied into the West end of the Black sea.
And here again, Gimbutas, for one, shows us the collapse in the 5th mil, but going on into the 4th. She rejects the idea of invasion because the abandonment of sites like Sabatinovka, in Moldavia was a thousand years before Varna, a few hundred miles south, was given up. A snail would have crossed the land faster. And like in Anatolia, the culture moved to Tripolye, south of Kiev on the Dneipr.
But again, the Vinca, Petresti, & Cucuteni were matriarchic. Just because the patriarchic tribes made history dont mean the matriarchies didnt exist. They just got the fuck out of the way. Gibbon reports that the "Sittones", in the Roman era, thousands of years later, were still matriarchic, and that they abandoned Germany and all the violence that was going on there to move to Sweden.
Likewise, when Dacia fell to the Romans, the Slavic DNA there is found among the Tocharian mummies of Taklamakhan, in this case the gawd awful desert offering some protection from chronic warfare.
Thus, today, if the proverbial shit hits the fan, some women are going to find some place to join together and get the fuck out of the way while the Jihadim and Jackasses have at each other. I wish I knew where that place was, but expect that'll be decided in the last emails women have.
In the meantime, there are a lotta good people trying to keep it together; they mite be successful inspite of all the insanity and group think.
Add a little stress & ambiguity, mix well, and the power of perceived authority goes without question. But what else would you expect of a population that believes in an almighty god with a 'divine plan'?
Once you believe your own eyes, and realize that that hunk of steel was not heated with jet fuel, a whole host of ambiguities open up, among which is, what would a population that realized it was lied to in such a monstrous way do? Nobody wants to think about that.
The lessons of the ruins of ancient civilizations revealed by archeology are numerous enough to give great cause for concern, but without any plan, divine or otherwise, to cope with the revolution that would prolly result.
The cognitive dissonance of 911, hubbard's peak oil, ethanol, DNA driven behavior patterns, dietary deficit and contamination impairing mental development, uncontrolled immigration, fiscal unsustainablity, middle class income level & now the housing market... and many other issues give rise to the phrase "The Untied States of Denial" as a meme which could take off at any time if any of the above issues reaches a critical stage.
Archeology shows the fall of power elites as far back as we can trace to be very precipitous with one exception that comes to mind, ie Anatolia. Hodder does not report on any point in the abandonment where there is evidence of revolution. His chart shows a dozen cities abandoned at the end of the 7th mil with a few others founded, as if the refugees remaining at the dozen gathered at some few new locations.
It was all so gradual in contrast to the devastation and vandalism seen so often in other declines. I'm sure matriarchy had something to do with it. I am sure also that many left for newer communities in the floodplains of the rivers that emptied into the West end of the Black sea.
And here again, Gimbutas, for one, shows us the collapse in the 5th mil, but going on into the 4th. She rejects the idea of invasion because the abandonment of sites like Sabatinovka, in Moldavia was a thousand years before Varna, a few hundred miles south, was given up. A snail would have crossed the land faster. And like in Anatolia, the culture moved to Tripolye, south of Kiev on the Dneipr.
But again, the Vinca, Petresti, & Cucuteni were matriarchic. Just because the patriarchic tribes made history dont mean the matriarchies didnt exist. They just got the fuck out of the way. Gibbon reports that the "Sittones", in the Roman era, thousands of years later, were still matriarchic, and that they abandoned Germany and all the violence that was going on there to move to Sweden.
Likewise, when Dacia fell to the Romans, the Slavic DNA there is found among the Tocharian mummies of Taklamakhan, in this case the gawd awful desert offering some protection from chronic warfare.
Thus, today, if the proverbial shit hits the fan, some women are going to find some place to join together and get the fuck out of the way while the Jihadim and Jackasses have at each other. I wish I knew where that place was, but expect that'll be decided in the last emails women have.
In the meantime, there are a lotta good people trying to keep it together; they mite be successful inspite of all the insanity and group think.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
-
Rokcet Scientist
Well I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
Though I have to say I'm not convinced. I'm not saying there never have been matriarchal societies (indeed it'd be pretty odd if that were the case) but the idea strikes me rather as wishful thinking, along very similar lines to Laurette Sejourne whose writing upon Mexican and Mayan society still seems to be based in the ludicrously unsupportable notion that human sacrifice (etc) never actually happened - it was all (apparently) just a stylistic metaphor for humanity's desire to attain "enlightenment" (etc etc) and rise above the lower instincts of its "spiritual" (etc etc) nature. Nice idea but the evidence says WTF!? THis just strikes me as modern concerns imposing themselves upon history in support of some argument. In my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
Though I have to say I'm not convinced. I'm not saying there never have been matriarchal societies (indeed it'd be pretty odd if that were the case) but the idea strikes me rather as wishful thinking, along very similar lines to Laurette Sejourne whose writing upon Mexican and Mayan society still seems to be based in the ludicrously unsupportable notion that human sacrifice (etc) never actually happened - it was all (apparently) just a stylistic metaphor for humanity's desire to attain "enlightenment" (etc etc) and rise above the lower instincts of its "spiritual" (etc etc) nature. Nice idea but the evidence says WTF!? THis just strikes me as modern concerns imposing themselves upon history in support of some argument. In my opinion.
-
Rokcet Scientist
<And its proponents as wishful thinkers. Exactly like 'believers'. With exactly the same problem: evidence! >
I dont deny that there's a lotta delusional fluff bunnies out there going on about how sweet and generous matriarchies were. But evidence? have you, for instance, gone to the extraordinary effort of trying Google?
What do you think the Minangkabau or Mosou are? You seen their king list?
I dont expect everyone to read everything I say, but I've cited the Kuchi several times. This is an archaeology forum right? Is there anyone here who does not know that the graves of the Amazons have been found?
Again, group think at work. Many folks live and work with people who have not looked into the question, and frankly do not want to. They instinctively, and correctly, assume that studying a culture that different would challenge their moral sensibilites. So, in order to accomodate these people, information presented here or elsewhere which would upset them is ignored.
I dont have the problem. I live alone in the woods. I can, and do, upset sensibilities online all the time by pointing out areas of cognitive dissonance to people who've never heard the term. Since I am not running for office, I can indulge my passion for logic and truth. Not that I dont also sometimes post stupid shit online, and then get called on it.
But succinctly put, there are two ways to control men. Sex or violence. Pick one. The matriarchies used sex.
I dont deny that there's a lotta delusional fluff bunnies out there going on about how sweet and generous matriarchies were. But evidence? have you, for instance, gone to the extraordinary effort of trying Google?
What do you think the Minangkabau or Mosou are? You seen their king list?
I dont expect everyone to read everything I say, but I've cited the Kuchi several times. This is an archaeology forum right? Is there anyone here who does not know that the graves of the Amazons have been found?
Again, group think at work. Many folks live and work with people who have not looked into the question, and frankly do not want to. They instinctively, and correctly, assume that studying a culture that different would challenge their moral sensibilites. So, in order to accomodate these people, information presented here or elsewhere which would upset them is ignored.
I dont have the problem. I live alone in the woods. I can, and do, upset sensibilities online all the time by pointing out areas of cognitive dissonance to people who've never heard the term. Since I am not running for office, I can indulge my passion for logic and truth. Not that I dont also sometimes post stupid shit online, and then get called on it.
But succinctly put, there are two ways to control men. Sex or violence. Pick one. The matriarchies used sex.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
Believe me, I am grateful. I once found a box of books in an abandoned house on my property. A 1920 collection of classics from the Harvard press. Aristotle, Plato, Epictetus, Plotinus, Plutarch, Thucydides, Pliny, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Petronius, Apuleius, Tacitus Cicero, Cato, St. Augustine, Epicurus, Homer, Ovid... 5 foot of shelf space.
And spent the winter getting the same kind of education the Founding Farmers got.
After surgery that could have just as well sent me to the morgue, and nobody would offer an opinion on how long I had left, I moved to the Ozark woods. They say a pending execution concentrates the mind. So, its not a path to enlightenment I can recommend.
Yet, here I still am, 30 odd years later. What do doctors know anyway? From what I've read of psychological studies, its clear the shrinks are nuts. They were all so sure of themselves, so ready to dismiss the ancients as crackpots.
Yet they dont have the balls to challenge the crackpots running what passes for religion like Lucretius did over 2000 years ago. All he said was to look at what was going on. Like the dust motes in the sunbeam coming into his room, which he observes twist and turn like the leaves floating in a creek. Is there a divine plan in this, with this myriad of motes dancing? Naaa, that's all bullshit. He sees hidden currents and bits in the flow impacting the dust motes and gets into what we now call Chaos theory.
I think its really neat that we can take the insights of Milgram, Bandura, Zimbardo, & Janis to what the ancients had to say of the nature of man, and see not only that they were not bullshitting, by why they were right.
One regret I have at being 68 is that I mite not live long enuf, certainly if we have to wait for reconstruction after economic panic, for the scrolls in the Villa of the Paypri to be, themselves, reconstructed.
Another is that it was said that the road to Kucha thru the desert was very clearly marked by the skeletons of the dead. Remember "2001", where the dude goes in the box, and all he does is follow the footsteps of the dead? what kinda balls is that anyway?
Nevertheless, lots of the skeletons were bandit victims. And what did they do with the scrolls and books of the monks they killed? What else but toss them aside into the desert. So, they are still there.
And spent the winter getting the same kind of education the Founding Farmers got.
After surgery that could have just as well sent me to the morgue, and nobody would offer an opinion on how long I had left, I moved to the Ozark woods. They say a pending execution concentrates the mind. So, its not a path to enlightenment I can recommend.
Yet, here I still am, 30 odd years later. What do doctors know anyway? From what I've read of psychological studies, its clear the shrinks are nuts. They were all so sure of themselves, so ready to dismiss the ancients as crackpots.
Yet they dont have the balls to challenge the crackpots running what passes for religion like Lucretius did over 2000 years ago. All he said was to look at what was going on. Like the dust motes in the sunbeam coming into his room, which he observes twist and turn like the leaves floating in a creek. Is there a divine plan in this, with this myriad of motes dancing? Naaa, that's all bullshit. He sees hidden currents and bits in the flow impacting the dust motes and gets into what we now call Chaos theory.
I think its really neat that we can take the insights of Milgram, Bandura, Zimbardo, & Janis to what the ancients had to say of the nature of man, and see not only that they were not bullshitting, by why they were right.
One regret I have at being 68 is that I mite not live long enuf, certainly if we have to wait for reconstruction after economic panic, for the scrolls in the Villa of the Paypri to be, themselves, reconstructed.
Another is that it was said that the road to Kucha thru the desert was very clearly marked by the skeletons of the dead. Remember "2001", where the dude goes in the box, and all he does is follow the footsteps of the dead? what kinda balls is that anyway?
Nevertheless, lots of the skeletons were bandit victims. And what did they do with the scrolls and books of the monks they killed? What else but toss them aside into the desert. So, they are still there.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
The only problem with docs writing you off DB, as has been done to me, is they know they are onto a winner. They are bound to right eventually and I'll hazard a guess that what ever you left behind when you crawled away to die was no where near as good as your life in the woods?
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
Well, the last straw in that regard Digit, was reading a hydrology report. I moved to the Ozark woods from New Orleans 31 years early. Which I take as a lesson regarding the current cultural collapse threads.
Just as I watched the weather reports every hurricane season, wondering when the Big One would hit, so also I watch the economic, environmental, and agricultural reports now. Altho, I dont think I'll have another 31 years.
I dunno if there are some of us, who are innately worry worts, are therefore drawn to archeology, or after reading about the collapses of so many other cultures become paranoid.
But whether its a hurricane, or global fiscal panic, wherever you are, you will have, at best, only a few days to arrange things. And- whatever the risk of calamity is, there are places, out of the great urban centers, where your options for survival if things are bad, or a good life for you and those you care about, are dramatically expanded.
Gibbon comes to mind:"In times of confusion, every active genius finds his place assigned to him by Nature." And not, therefore, by the good old boy system. In the same era Rome fell, Kiev and several other independent city states emerged on the trade routes between the Baltic & Black seas where a man could raise his family in a timber frame house with a "Russian Furnace", and if he didnt like the political situation, get on a boat or vote with his feet.
In my post apocalyptic, http://www.dc-pc.org/newomen/newomen.html, I stipulate a new economy organized around seaplane freighters. When you add up the infrastructure costs of airports, highways, bridges, rails, & the security services needed to control them, its cheaper to fly from one lake or river to another in the shipping business.
Its curious to consider, that in the very era where trade came nearly to a standstill in Western Europe as the hegemony of the Romans collapsed, it flourished on the North South Amber, and East West Silk Roads. Why is that?
Just as I watched the weather reports every hurricane season, wondering when the Big One would hit, so also I watch the economic, environmental, and agricultural reports now. Altho, I dont think I'll have another 31 years.
I dunno if there are some of us, who are innately worry worts, are therefore drawn to archeology, or after reading about the collapses of so many other cultures become paranoid.
But whether its a hurricane, or global fiscal panic, wherever you are, you will have, at best, only a few days to arrange things. And- whatever the risk of calamity is, there are places, out of the great urban centers, where your options for survival if things are bad, or a good life for you and those you care about, are dramatically expanded.
Gibbon comes to mind:"In times of confusion, every active genius finds his place assigned to him by Nature." And not, therefore, by the good old boy system. In the same era Rome fell, Kiev and several other independent city states emerged on the trade routes between the Baltic & Black seas where a man could raise his family in a timber frame house with a "Russian Furnace", and if he didnt like the political situation, get on a boat or vote with his feet.
In my post apocalyptic, http://www.dc-pc.org/newomen/newomen.html, I stipulate a new economy organized around seaplane freighters. When you add up the infrastructure costs of airports, highways, bridges, rails, & the security services needed to control them, its cheaper to fly from one lake or river to another in the shipping business.
Its curious to consider, that in the very era where trade came nearly to a standstill in Western Europe as the hegemony of the Romans collapsed, it flourished on the North South Amber, and East West Silk Roads. Why is that?
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.