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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:30 pm
by Beagle
Michelle, that's a good study. Maps, pics. Thanks. I'm gonna start checking out that source, it's got great stuff!
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:58 pm
by Beagle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River
According to palaeoenvironmental scientists the desiccation of Sarasvati came about as a result of the diversion of at least two rivers that fed it, the Satluj and the Yamuna. "The chain of tectonic events … diverted the Satluj westward (into the Indus) and the Palaeo Yamuna eastward (into the Ganga) … This explains the ‘death’ of such a mighty river (the Sarasvati) … because its main feeders, the Satluj and Palaeo Yamuna were weaned away from it by the Indus and the Gangaa respectively” [9][10]. This ended at c 1750, but it started much earlier, perhaps with the upheavals and the large flood of 1900, or more probably 2100 [11][12]. P H Francfort, utilizing images from the French satellite SPOT, finds [13] that the large river Sarasvati is pre-Harappan altogether and started drying up in the middle of the 4th millennium BC; during Harappan times only a complex irrigation-canal network was being used in the southern region of the Indus Valley. With this the date should be pushed back to c 3800 BC.
Cogs, I took the lazy way out. Here's what Wiki says. It seems like they're still working the actual dates out.
Still, we know that the water comes from the Himalayan mountains. So the glacial retreat has to be a factor.
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:11 pm
by Minimalist
more probably 2100
There's that late 3'd millenium date, again. Only this time with a flood and not a drought.
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:21 pm
by Beagle
and the large flood of 1900, or more probably 2100
Yeah, and I don't know what they mean by
the large flood.
Sounds like something we should all know about, but it isn't to me.
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 8:22 am
by Beagle
http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstor ... sid=234788
Rajkot, May 4: Archaeologists are excited about a circular wooden structure found underwater at a near-shore excavation site off the coast of Jamnagar. Thought to be the remains of the lost city of ancient Dwarka, the wooden structure is well preserved and surrounded by another structure made of stone blocks.
“It is significant as scientific dating of wood, which is carbon, is possible. This was not the case with evidences like stone, beads, glass and terracota found earlier,” said Alok Tripathi, Superintending Archeologist, Underwater Archeology Wing of Archaeological Survey of India.
More info about the in situ piece of wood found in the Bay of Cambay. Posted in Archaeologica News, there will probably be a flurry of reports over this.
Wooden block
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:04 am
by Cognito
Beags, that makes more sense for reliable dating. A wooden block which is part of a structure cannot be intrusive. The dating should provide some long-needed answers.
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:17 am
by Beagle
Yeah, it will sure help Cogs. Realistically it will tell us how old that well is, and it's only submerged in about 10 feet of water I think. It's very near the shoreline. It's a good start though.
a different kind of map
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:58 am
by john
Once the europeans really started sending out ships, there were a lot of dead.
Usually sewn up in a shroud, with a cannonshot or a weight at their feet.
They were consigned to the deep.
Imagine the long fall to the bottom.
And., once there, the geometry of individual human dolmens markng the path of politics, trade, and suffering, on te bottom of the ocean.
Were there a way to make a map of that!
john
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:52 am
by Forum Monk
John,
What strange imagery you suggest. Human marker posts directing the routes to progress. But I suppose the trails of blood on the land are no less morbid and all the more real.
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 9:05 am
by kbs2244
Didn't we go through all this with the idea of sharks still patrolling the routes taken by the slave ships. Waiting for the dead to be thrown over?
What a hoot and a half that was. When you did the math the supposed body count was greater than the current population of Africa.
The advantage of ships, be they military or merchant, is the amount of weight or firepower they can carry for the number of men required.
The ratio compared to a land based army or caravan is huge. Because of this, while there have been plenty of marine deaths, as high as 30 percent at the height of the English Navy, it is a no contest compared to the land based deaths in either in caravans or on campaigns.
An aircraft carrier has apx 5000 people on board. That is a lot of bodies. But an army general would consider that just the start for his motor pool.
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:50 pm
by Rokcet Scientist
The average attrition rate for slaves shipped from west Africa to US and Brasilian markets was 1 in 3. It was factored in. Part of the reason the slaves were literally stacked on board: there would be enough space soon anyway...
Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:49 pm
by Forum Monk
Rokcet Scientist wrote:The average attrition rate for slaves shipped from west Africa to US and Brasilian markets was 1 in 3. It was factored in. Part of the reason the slaves were literally stacked on board: there would be enough space soon anyway...
R/S you are more than likely correct about this, but it causes me pain to realize how little regard some humans can have for others. And so throughout history.
What a shameful legacy.
Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:44 am
by kbs2244
That 1 in 3 number may seem high, but it was just average.
Both the East India Trading Co and the Dutch East India Co assumed a 30 percent loss of crew on a round trip from London or Amsterdam to India and back. The sailors assumed it also. It was just one of the risks one took when you went to sea. To make up for the risk, both Companies allowed the sailors a single chest of private trade goods in both directions. In effect it was sanctioned trade "on the side."
Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:02 am
by Digit
These figures depend on the period you quote, for example, Magellan started with 270 men and returned with just 18!
Cook paid more attention to his crew's health, as did Bligh, and so did the Royal Navy.
Forget Hornblower et al many men volunteered for the RN as a means to great wealth and their skills were valued.
Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 am
by Beagle
http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/04/stories ... 361300.htm
Alok Tripathi, Superintending Archaeologist, UAW,who led the excavation, said: "The discovery of this wooden block is of great importance because these submerged stone structures are known for the past 40 years. But no material was available from these structures, which can be dated. Stones cannot be easily dated. Dates given earlier were based on different interpretations."
The block, made of local beach wood, would be sent for carbon-14 dating and "it will give the final date for the submerged structures at Dwaraka," said Dr. Tripathi, a trained diver as well.
Yet another article on the archaeology at Dwarka. This one has a picture.
. From the Daily Grail.