Why NOT in America?

[Digit]

Compared with Rome for example I can't RS, that's my point. There were civilisations that existed without the large urban centres, the pre-Roman Britain was civilised in that it had laws, art, poetry, etc and same with the Saxons, same with the Mongols.
Ok, I accept that they did build eventually, but by then they had existed as a people with laws etc before that.
The plains Indians didn't go in for large urban centres, but they must have been familiar with them from those native Americas that did go in for that sort of thing.
My view is that civilisation come first. cities follow.
IE Civilisation creates cities, cities don't create civilisation.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Long live having a two method model. The Old World folks were master brewers (that requires lots of agriculture to keep the beer flowing, but I prefer it.) The New World folks were master herbalists. For people of that persuasion it requires very little space - mainly just recognition. Except for tobacco.

Sure. The indians didn't have beer. But not because they didn't want it (they've been doing their damnedest to make up for 8 millennia of 'missed' beer consumption in the last 500 years; and still do! With a passion!). They wanted it allright. But they simply hadn't invented it. They needed old world folks to acqaint 'm with the concept (of 'firewater'). They couldn't/hadn't develop(ed) it themselves.

And BTW, if "the New World folks were master herbalists", then why couldn't/didn't they make beer or other alcoholic beverages? Beer is a derivate of grain, herbs, and yeast... Other alcoholic beverages are also based on herbs and grain.
Sorry, but "master herbalists" that can't make beer, etc., are not 'master herbalists' in my book!

Another "legend".

[zale]

Itś difficult to see a grand civilisation when it did not even invent the wheel...

[Minimalist]

The fact that some native Americans did build urban centres and others did not would seem to indicate a definite choice.

Perhaps "definite need" would work better than "definite choice?"

[Rokcet Scientist]

It's difficult to see a grand civilisation when it did not even invent the wheel...

It's even more difficult to see a grand civilisation that – according to some – knew the wheel, but supposedly 'chose' not to use it...!

Yeah, right!

LOL!

[Minimalist]

The Egyptians allegedly built the pyramids without wheeled transport... if you believe the Club, anyway.

[Digit]

RS, if somebody can correct the details for I THINK it was the Aztecs who had wheeled toys but no evidence of wheeled vehicles. That infers choice. Wheeled vehicles also of course need roads which can be problem in some parts of the world.

[Beagle]

Wow - I don't think attitudes about things can be changed very easy but I have to correct a certain fallacy.

Sure. The indians didn't have beer. But not because they didn't want it (they've been doing their damnedest to make up for 8 millennia of 'missed' beer consumption in the last 500 years; and still do! With a passion!). They wanted it allright. But they simply hadn't invented it. They needed old world folks to acqaint 'm with the concept (of 'firewater'). They couldn't/hadn't develop(ed) it themselves.

This is probably the biggest, most fallacious, and prejudiced myth about Native Americans. It comes straight from the old black and white TV cowboy shows.

Fact: The incidence of alcohol related disorders among Native Americans is higher than the general population. This includes diabetes. This incidence is not related to the amount of alcohol consumed as it is a genetic intolerance to alcohol.

Fact: The incidence of lung cancer associated with tobacco use in Native Americans is lower than the general population. This is true despite the fact that more Native Americans smoke than any other group.

Seems like a fair trade. Over many thousands of years of separation we have different genetic tolerances. However, it is the European diet that affects them most adversely.

So - I truly disagree with what you're promoting here R/S, and it seems more attitudinal than fact based, so I don't think I'll be able to contribute much here. If I run across interesting factual material I'll post it.

[Cognito]

And BTW, if "the New World folks were master herbalists", then why couldn't/didn't they make beer or other alcoholic beverages? Beer is a derivate of grain, herbs, and yeast... Other alcoholic beverages are also based on herbs and grain.
Sorry, but "master herbalists" that can't make beer, etc., are not 'master herbalists' in my book!

Apparently, you have never heard of chicha, the alcoholic drink of the Inca Empire before the Conquistadores showed up, made from maize and a variety of other ingredients. My father-in-law was a Quechua, the ruling tribe of the Inca Empire and we drank chicha at special occasions. He also had a treatise on that culture's medicinal herbs from prior to the Conquest which was written down in Quechua using the Latin alphabet with footnotes in Spanish. He planned to translate it to English since he was fluent in all three languages, but died from Parkinson's before he could do so. And by the way, beer is still not popular in Peru or Bolivia today.

[kbs2244]

I may have miss-stated the page number on the other thread. My SA entries are on page 8.
What they show is that there was a lot of “complex activity” in SA at this time. It just has not been reported on until now.
As far as the wheel goes, they seem to have known of it, but just didn’t need it. The Inca had one of the most vertical territories in history. Their roads had steps, not wheel ruts.
The Maya and the unnamed Amazon civilizations were in waterlogged areas. Boats, not carts, where what they needed.
But the traces of them that have survived have done so because of their very remoteness. Progress is just now getting to them. And when you build with wood and dirt in a rain forest environment things get overgrown and rotten fast.
NA went through all this 150 years ago. There were published reports of found things, but plowing, and private land ownership rights trumps any historic value.
In St Louis there is a street called, I believe, Shell Heap Lane. It went past a three story high pile of fresh water oyster shells. The pile is gone now. They ground up the shells for lime production.
How many mounds in Ohio, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Illinois, have been plowed over?
Has anybody heard of the Pygmy graveyards that were found while plowing in Tennessee and Kentucky? Those discoveries made the local papers, but it was plowing season, after all, so current needs prevailed.
My point is that just because it is not well written up does not mean it did not happen. It just is not well known.

[Rokcet Scientist]

chicha, the alcoholic drink of the Inca Empire before the Conquistadores showed up, made from maize and a variety of other ingredients. My father-in-law was a Quechua, the ruling tribe of the Inca Empire and we drank chicha at special occasions.

Exactly: "special occassions".
I.o.w. 'chicha' is not the omnipresent, everyday drink of the masses, like beer was/is in the old world.
All through recorded history, in fact until 100/150 years ago, people (the masses), also/especially in 'civilised' Europe, drank beer as their main beverage, to quench their thirst. So not neccessarily for fun! Why? Simple: there was no reliable drinking water system like we have today. If you drank water you had odds of 2 to 1 to get sick... Beer was a lot healthier (still is ;–)) )!

My point is that just because it is not well written up does not mean it did not happen. It just is not well known.

"Not well written up", "not well known"... sounds like a vacuum to me. Vacuums tend to fill up. Not this one, apparently. Very strange! Or is it? Not if there isn't anything to fill it with.

[Minimalist]

The Romans developed a superior water delivery system yet wine remained a drink of choice throughout much of the Empire.

I tend to think you are over-generalizing, R/S. The Indians developed diverse cultures based on their environment. Tribes in the Pacific NW did not live in the same manner as tribes in the Dakotas. Tribes in the SW formed towns as did those in the NE.

In every case, it seems, the key to urbanization was agriculture, however it would be a mistake to attribute the status of "city" to neolithic farming communities.

Even in the mid-east, the model is an "administrative center" such as Megiddo or Hazor. What is an administrative center? A palace for the local governor, some store houses, maybe a few outbuildings and some sort of quasi-defensible position, usually a hilltop (artificial or natural) and a water source. The majority of the population did not live there. They lived in small farming hamlets next to their fields which is where both they and the king wanted their sorry butts.

Dear old Zahi Hawass once patiently explained how his village of Deir el-Medina would have housed 24,000 pyramid workers.

Were that the case, Deir el-Medina would have been the second largest city in Old Kingdom Egypt and probably in the entire world.


"Cities" as we know them grow up in the aftermath of the agricultural revolution when trade, bureaucracy and, unfortunately, religion, have gained a toe hold.

[Rokcet Scientist]

The Romans developed a superior water delivery system

Not for the masses of the empire! But for the soldiers and the elite.
The masses drank beer.

In every case, it seems, the key to urbanization was agriculture, however it would be a mistake to attribute the status of "city" to neolithic farming communities.

Absolutely.

Even in the mid-east, the model is an "administrative center" such as Megiddo or Hazor. What is an administrative center? A palace for the local governor, some store houses, maybe a few outbuildings and some sort of quasi-defensible position, usually a hilltop (artificial or natural) and a water source. The majority of the population did not live there. They lived in small farming hamlets next to their fields which is where both they and the king wanted their sorry butts.

So where are the indian "administrative centers"?

"Cities" as we know them grow up in the aftermath of the agricultural revolution when trade, bureaucracy and, unfortunately, religion, have gained a toe hold.

Exactly.
So "trade, bureaucracy and, unfortunately, religion*" – "civilisation" – did not gain "a toe hold" in NA.

*in the sense of a 'large', organised religion (like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mithraïsm, etc.). Of course indians had/have their 'small-scale' shamanic religions.

[Cognito]

Exactly: "special occassions".
I.o.w. 'chicha' is not the omnipresent, everyday drink of the masses, like beer was/is in the old world.

R/S, you misquoted me. I said that "we" drank chicha on special occasions, the "we" being my father-in-law and myself. Chicha is the drink of the masses in Peru and Bolivia. It is their equivalent of beer in Europe, and was so prior to the conquest.

[Minimalist]

So where are the indian "administrative centers"?

I don't know what else you would consider those Mounds in the Mississippi valley.

Even with flood control the Mississippi floods continually depending on rainfall. If it isn't the Mississippi, it's the Ohio, Tennessee, Missouri or Red rivers, doing it. What would be left of Jericho or Megiddo if it were repeatedly flooded over the course of centuries?