Archaeologica.org

I seem to remember a notion that they were a Scythian people that originated in the northern Ukraine, were dislodged by conquering asian peoples, and started moving south, over many centuries, wrecking every civilisation in their path: the Getae, the Thracians, The Mycaeneans, Hittite Apasa, the Minoans, the Cypriots, and the Levantine, until they were stopped by Pharaoh.
They're still there in that corner of the med, wrecking societies.

Yup. Doesn't explain the Philistine's Hellenic pottery though.

Like the level of gun violence in this country, it's probably a mistake to look for THE cause rather than the 'causes.'

Minimalist wrote:Yup. Doesn't explain the Philistine's Hellenic pottery though.

Like the level of gun violence in this country, it's probably a mistake to look for THE cause rather than the 'causes.'

Maybe you could summarize it as 'migratory pressure'. I submit less than 2 generations of 'foreigners' – especially in those fragile societies – is enough to send that society into an irreversible downward spiral.

Why did Scandinavians suddenly decide to go "a viking?" Had nothing to do with migratory pressure. It was hundreds of years later that they started to migrate to Greenland, Iceland, etc.

Almost as if one group did it and saw how easy and lucrative it was and the word got around!

Minimalist wrote:
Almost as if one group did it and saw how easy and lucrative it was and the word got around!

Exactly like Latinos in North America, and Africans and Arabs in Europe . . .

I don't know about Europe but the Mexicans work like dogs for low pay and no benefits.

They're hardly raiding the border towns.

Why did Scandinavians suddenly decide to go "a viking?" Had nothing to do with migratory pressure. It was hundreds of years later that they started to migrate to Greenland, Iceland, etc.

Almost as if one group did it and saw how easy and lucrative it was and the word got around!

Min, the Scandinavian populations had been rapidly increasing prior to the 9th century. First and foremost, they became overseas traders and merchants. Most Viking raids were preceeded by trade expeditions ... but why bother trading for goods when you can return and take them easily? They returned home with slaves and valuable goods, thereby increasing their status and power. And who was willing to visit THEM in their homeland to retaliate? (Yes, just another rhetorical question)

In Ireland they not only traded and raided, but established all the great shoreline merchant cities/centers, trading with the interior after settling down.

Agreed, Cogs, but the Vikings were not like the Goths, or the Nervii as Caesar described them: A whole people on the move looking for a new home. The Egyptians portray the Sea Peoples that way on the temple walls but that was at the end of their onslaught, not the beginning. Do we have any idea how they started out? Not really. Part of the problem is that the Sea Peoples were destroyers not builders.

The analogy of the Vikings to the Sea Peoples is not perfect but the image of the hit and run raid from the sea does seem to fit.

BTW, if there is anything to the Scythian scenario then Troy would have been one of the first targets they reached.

Min, agreed. However, it is my understanding that there was an extended multi-decade drought prior to 1200bce that strained the Anatolian plateau as well as Greece. The Hittites imported most of their grain from Syria and were desperately requesting shipments prior to their collapse. I cannot currently put my finger on the article, but the scientist was mentioning a 27 year period of rainfall that was 40-60% below normal at that time.

I agree that earthquakes don't result in populations resettling, but starvation is a great motivator. Especially when the kingdom near you seems to be doing just fine. In addition to sea raiders (ie pirates) there were many land migrations from the north to the south also, culminating in the cessation of hostilities in the Nile delta.

I'm all for a smorgasbord of reasons why this whole thing got started. A good drought would certainly help things along and earthquakes, while perhaps not causing migrations, could have caused extensive damage to the Anatolian cities making them better targets.

Still, though, as I recall the miniscule diplomatic correspondence which has survived, these Bronze Age cultures were being destroyed by peoples they had never come in contact before. That kind of lets out any sort of renewed strife among the kingdoms themselves as they would certainly have no difficulty putting a name to each other.

Minimalist wrote:
I don't know about Europe but the Mexicans work like dogs for low pay and no benefits.

That's from your perspective, Min. They feel they are coming to the promised land. The land of milk and honey. And compared to where they're coming from, they are coming to the promised land! The land of milk and honey!

Minimalist wrote:
They're hardly raiding the border towns.

No? I've seen plenty footage of 'm doing exactly that. Attacking, scaling those barriers with hundreds simultaneously. On the US/Mexican border. And on the Spanish/Moroccan border. Literal battles with platoons, batallions of border guards to force their way in. They arrive in their thousands (the ones that survive....) after perilous journeys in rickety open boats across the atlantic Ocean and the med. 40 or 50,000 of those per tiny island* per year. That qualifies as "raiding the border towns" in my book! You oughta see how the originally gorgeous tropical holiday destinations have been destroyed beyond recognition by that swarm of locusts passing through in the last decade.

They are flooding the northern hemisphere by dozens of millions.

In their shoes I would try the same thing.

*Six Canary Islands, Panteleria, Malta, Lampedusa, etc.

No? I've seen plenty footage of 'm doing exactly that. Attacking, scaling those barriers with hundreds simultaneously.

R/S...they are coming here to rake leaves and pick lettuce....they are not burning down villages and raping and pillaging as they go.

I think you've been watching too many movies.

BTW, try to get an American to rake leaves or pick lettuce.

Minimalist wrote:
they are coming here to rake leaves and pick lettuce....

...and to actually get paid for it for the first time in their lives! And to enjoy the sophisticated social fabric of the west, and the medical facilities. And, and, and. Everything they ain't got where they're coming from!
Beats unpaid slave work back home.
North America and Europe are paradise for people from the southern hemisphere!

Minimalist wrote:
they are not burning down villages and raping and pillaging as they go.

Dream on, Min! If you had a look at places like Los Christianos or Playa de las Americas on Tenerife, or at Pantelleria, or Lampedusa, or at the stateside barrios of El Paso and Laredo, or at the inner city of e.g. Los Angeles, you wouldn't know the difference! It's as if bunker buster bombs have exploded there! They're in ruins! Not to mention the indigenous people and their lives and futures...

Open your eyes! See the world for what it really is!

Not pretty...

The barrios are where THEY live, R/S. We have them right here in Phoenix.

There was an article last fall where a couple of peach farmers were whining that they were not able to get farm workers to pick their crop. There were no long lines of Americans eagerly waiting to do those jobs. The fruit rotted on the trees.

Out here, the anti-immigrant bias is directed at Mexicans. No one gives a flying fuck about the Canadian border. The anti-immigrant "frenzy" that the Republicans have whipped up is nothing but racism to appeal to their base constituency. The problem is that the money men in the Republican party represent business interests who want the cheap labor.

Minimalist wrote:
The barrios are where THEY live, R/S.

Indeed.
In your country.

Minimalist wrote:
We have them right here in Phoenix.

When last have you been there, and walked the streets without shiftily looking over your shoulder all the time...?

Minimalist wrote:
There was an article last fall where a couple of peach farmers were whining that they were not able to get farm workers to pick their crop. There were no long lines of Americans eagerly waiting to do those jobs. The fruit rotted on the trees.

Out here, the anti-immigrant bias is directed at Mexicans. No one gives a flying fuck about the Canadian border. The anti-immigrant "frenzy" that the Republicans have whipped up is nothing but racism to appeal to their base constituency. The problem is that the money men in the Republican party represent business interests who want the cheap labor.

Sure.
But while US and EU citizens keep themselves and eachother nicely busy with big moral debates (that lead nowhere!), the migrants keep flooding to their paradise by the millions!
Remember what the effect of the Sea Peoples on their 'host' civilisations was...?