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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:44 am
by War Arrow
AD wrote:While "argumentation from absence" is a usually unconvincing hallmark of academic archaeological rhetoric, there is the rather awkward fact that there is no recorded observation of iron smelting by Native Americans at the time of the Europeans' arrival here, and this does require some explaining on our part. After some head scratching, I came up with this tentative hypothesis, related at least to the time line here in Ohio: The iron artifacts here have little or no apparent practical utility, being mainly symbolic in nature. Around the time of the nominal transition from Middle to Late Woodland (roughly 1500 years ago), there was a marked cultural decline for whatever reason, characterized by ceasing to build large ceremonial centers, consolidating into relatively isolated communities, and greatly reducing the production of art. Assuming that, again for whatever reason, people were reacting to the stress of having to concentrate on survival-related activities, perhaps iron working, which apparently was only for the production of symbolic objects - obviously time-consuming and labor-intensive - fell by the wayside, and the technology was simply forgotten and lost over time. Just an idea...
Regards, Alan
Along similar lines, there's the whole Mesoamerican tradition of burning and abandoning formerly great cities never to return due to bad vibes (for want of a better word) as seen in Teotihuacan, Tollan, Quemada, many Mayan sites etc. This might be going too far but perhaps the same "once bitten, twice shy" thinking could apply to iron smelting as a practice (for whatever reason). I know art and craft traditions tend to carry on irrespective of culture, but iron smelting would seem a much, much, much bigger deal than stone carving, making paper, painting murals etc.
Just an idea.
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:05 am
by Forum Monk
War Arrow and AD,
Iron working can be a dangerous business. The temperatures are extremely high and if conditions are not properly maintained and sufficiently dry in the area and tools being utilized, a catastrophic steam explosion in quite likely. I can imagine, the "science" of metal smelting, may have been maintained by an "elite" subgroup who passed the knowledge only to others in the group. Perhaps in the beginning, it was maintained by shaman or priestly classes in secrecy. It makes sense, the first use may have been strictly ceremonial or religious.
Of course, most of the time cutting edge technology is used to fashion weapons of war but maybe in some cultures where enemies were few, the wars were spiritual.
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:42 am
by Rokcet Scientist
Forum Monk wrote:
[...] I can imagine, the "science" of metal smelting, may have been maintained by an "elite" subgroup who passed the knowledge only to others in the group. Perhaps in the beginning, it was maintained by shaman or priestly classes in secrecy. [...]
Exactly like today's medical profession or ICT specialists consider themselves "Jedi's", a cut above the rest of us, and wallow in being viewed as 'mysterious' and almost super-human.
The elite 'priest class'.
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:56 am
by War Arrow
Forum Monk wrote:
Iron working can be a dangerous business.
Yup. That was my point as to why it might have been rendered taboo and hence abandoned.
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:18 am
by Minimalist
Charlie Hatchett wrote:Minimalist wrote:As we showed, they are effective for chopping into small trees.
Do you still have images of the experiment?
I'm pretty sure that I do.
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:27 am
by Digit
Must have been before my time Min, could you re do please?
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:36 am
by Minimalist
Sharp Rocks
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:39 am
by Cognito
Fracturing these hard stones "naturally" would take a lot of force and the only natural force I can think of is gravity.
Whether by gravity or ice, etc. nature can certainly shatter rocks. However, nature cannot place direct impact percussion ripples in a systematic pattern on a piece of chert or chalcedony to create a bifacial implement formed as a tear-drop shaped hand axe or other cutting tool.
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:57 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
I have no doubt that two people working from different sides with sharp tools could bring even a tree this large down in less than an hour.
No doubt. And the area next to the constantly flowing stream has many, many nice sized trees for fuel, shelter, weapons and whatever else might be necessary.
Thanks for reposting those, Min.
Re: Sharp Rocks
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:59 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
Cognito wrote:Fracturing these hard stones "naturally" would take a lot of force and the only natural force I can think of is gravity.
Whether by gravity or ice, etc. nature can certainly shatter rocks. However, nature cannot place direct impact percussion ripples in a systematic pattern on a piece of chert or chalcedony to create a bifacial implement formed as a tear-drop shaped hand axe or other cutting tool.
Right. A percussion "signature" is very different from a thermal "signature".
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:14 pm
by Minimalist
Besides....how much ice do they get in Texas?
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:32 pm
by Digit
Thanks Min. One question, what did the early people in NA use in place of timber?
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:00 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
Besides....how much ice do they get in Texas?
As far as I know, the glacial advances never made it this far south.
We had an ice storm for 5 days last year and I didn't observe any kind of spalling, even on the soft stone.
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:02 pm
by Minimalist
Digit wrote:Thanks Min. One question, what did the early people in NA use in place of timber?
For what? Building?
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:17 pm
by Digit
For anything Min, you see, when I first joined the forum I made the comment that absence of evidence was not evidence of absence, and either Cog or Charlie, (got your name right at last
), I forget which, dropped on me.
Soo if there are no hand axes in NA, how did pepole cut timber, trained Beavers perhaps?
Surely this is an example of absence of evidence etc?
You find a corpse with ligature marks around its neck, but no weapon, it would be reasonable to assume the corpse had been strangled!
Deduction, they used timber, they had to cut it, how?
