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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:25 pm
by woodrabbit
Ish, I love your mind, and if I can quote my own tag line....
"its's (surely) more complicated than its seems."
So....now that we know where the poles are and you have a bit of John's wind at your back.... care to sketch a bit of the middle ground?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:40 pm
by Minimalist
Min - Darwin's theory is not too deep for the Fundies to grasp, because its actually quite a simplistic one. They just don't believe in it because it goes against their belief system. It's as simple as that.
I disagree, dear. They have bastardized it into a substitute for the origin of life on earth because it suits their particular superstition, not because they understand it better than Darwin himself.
You are a little too sane a person to appreciate how stone, cold, fuck, nuts, these people really are. They really DO claim that dinosaurs and man lived together in harmony because the dinosaurs were all vegetarians!
As the great Lewis Black says, "they look at the Flintstones as if it were a documentary."
I think we have to make you a bit crazier than so you can see what these people are really like.
http://www.creationmuseum.org/about
Walk through the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life, central to the garden, stretches out its branches, laden with ripened fruits. Come face-to-face with a sauropod, a dinosaur of incredible dimensions. His monstrous frame moves through the low-lying thicket as he grazes on plants. Introduce yourself to our chameleons. Examine bones, a clutch of eggs from a dinosaur, an exceptional fossil collection, and a mineral collection. Walk through the Cave of Sorrows and see the horrific effects of the Fall of man. Sounds of a sin-ravaged world echo through the room. Finally, see the sacrificial Lamb on the cross, and the hope of redemption.
I can't make this shit up.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:03 am
by Ishtar
Min - I have no doubt you're right that the Creationists are bunch of ~':/ing *& ! (*&#^%$" nkers!
But can we just forget them for one second, and look at this subject objectively?
Here is the first para from the conclusion of The Descent of Man written by Darwin himself:
http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... er_21.html
A BRIEF summary will be sufficient to recall to the reader's mind
the more salient points in this work. Many of the views which have
been advanced are highly speculative, and some no doubt will prove
erroneous; but I have in every case given the reasons which have led
me to one view rather than to another.
woodrabbit - my mind gets me into a lot of trouble!

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:54 am
by Digit
One reason that I have always respected Darwin and Einstein Ish is that both of them didn't hammer their pet theories as proven fact. In fact both demonstrated weaknesses in their ideas and asked for experimention to satisfy the arguments either way.
Compare that with Clovis first supporters.
Darwin lacked the information that we now have on genetics and new that he was unable to explain inheritance and admitted it.
Right or wrong he was a great and honest thinker.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:09 am
by Ishtar
I think he was a honest thinker - but he was very much a product of his time, as we are a product of our's.
For instance, this, a few paras down:
He who is not content to look, like a savage, at the
phenomena of nature as disconnected, cannot any longer believe that
man is the work of a separate act of creation.
Far from 'savages' believing in the disconnectness of nature, it was actually the Victorians who took this idea to its apogee. It is they who insisted on the taming and manicuring of nature, and it is they who are mainly responsible for the great chasm that exists in man's thinking between himself and nature today.
But I would be interested to hear how his ideas have been taken on by others, and whether we are any nearer to finding this 'common ancestor' proposed by Darwin.
We should be capable of discussing this without relating it to fundies, who have their own trip going on. In other words, by proving the fundies wrong does not of itself prove Darwin to be right. So let's decouple please!
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:06 am
by Minimalist
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:34 am
by Ishtar
Thanks, Min. Some interesting results based on taxonomy there. But this is not much further on than Darwin's own work, which grouped and categorised species,and then by his admission, speculated on the basis of that that we must come from a common ancestor.
However, as I understand it, for a scientific theory to be proven, its conclusions have to be:
1.
Observable. That man descended from a common ancestor is plainly not observable, as we cannot find the common ancestor and probably would need to use Dr Who's Tardis to find him, if he did exist.
2.
Testable. Any assumptions should be provable by consistently reproducing a similar outcome. We cannot test this because we have no ‘common ancestor’ to use in the test.
and it cannot be ....
1.
Based on speculation. Darwin himself admitted his theory was full of speculation.
2.
In contradiction with other proven facts (such as the Natural Laws or Physical Laws) - Well, we don't know if it's in contradiction or not ....
It's the same with the Aryan Invasion Theory - again there was supposed to be proto race, or common race, from which all IE speaking descended bbased on comparing the similarities of languages. But, well, you know the rest of that story ...
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:56 am
by Minimalist
From 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense:
3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.
This blanket dismissal of evolution ignores important distinctions that divide the field into at least two broad areas: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution looks at changes within species over time--changes that may be preludes to speciation, the origin of new species. Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related.
These days even most creationists acknowledge that microevolution has been upheld by tests in the laboratory (as in studies of cells, plants and fruit flies) and in the field (as in Grant's studies of evolving beak shapes among Gal�pagos finches). Natural selection and other mechanisms--such as chromosomal changes, symbiosis and hybridization--can drive profound changes in populations over time.
The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not--and does not--find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.
Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.
It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=15- ... ist&page=2
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:00 am
by War Arrow
Perhaps it isn't a proven theory, but it seems that there is a great wealth of evidence (DNA etc) in support of it being rather more than simply a "belief", and if that still leaves said theory somewhat wanting in the absence of access to time travel, I can't help feeling that this argument might as well end up debating whether I can really prove that I'm sitting on a chair in the front room at present. Sure the model of Darwinian evolution has been subject to justified questions and extensive revision, though I would dispute that any of said questions or revisions would call into question the validity of his model, or even of its details.
Sorry - but no matter how well intentioned, this kind of thing just wears me out.
I'm done.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:20 am
by Digit
If it was proven WA it would no longer be a theory, it would be a law.
It certainly can be proven if tested but unlikely that that will ever be the case for man.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:21 am
by Minimalist
Refresh my memory but can any amount of evidence elevate a theory into a law?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:29 am
by dannan14
i thought that "Law' of science was a misnomer for a well established theory. Even gravity is theory and not Law.
i guess i am a little off in what i said above.
From Wiki:
The concept of a scientific law is closely related to the concept of a scientific theory. A scientific law attempts to describe an observation in nature while a scientific theory attempts to explain it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:44 am
by Digit
Not evidence Min, proof is required. The theory has to be tested and shown to work under the terms specified within the theory.
Such as the laws of conservation of energy, tested and shown to be correct, but a law can end up being disproved, such as Newton's laws of gravity.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:14 am
by Ishtar
The reason I wanted to point out that Darwin’s theory about a common ancestor has never been proved is not to be contrary or controversial. It was because there is often a kind of feeling (possibly not on this board, but certainly among the general populace) that scientific theories evolve naturally into unshakeable Laws, and I think many people assume that Darwin’s theory on the Descent of Man is one of them.
In fact, though, great discoveries in science rarely happen through slow and incremental evolution of someone else’s theories. They tend to happen as a revolution - and at the beginning of that revolution, its inventor is often laughed at and called a lunatic or, in more religious times, completely disenfranchised.
Aspects of human development can also be regarded in this way.
As I'm sure you all know, Gordon Childe, the Australian archaeologist, described the change from the Palaeolithic to the Neolithic as "the Neolithic revolution". In other words, a comparatively sudden change from flaked stone artefacts and a hunting and gathering lifestyle to the introduction of polished stone axes and the beginning of farming.
He argued that society was driven by its material foundations and, through evolutionary process, 'contradictions' developed. These contradictions were resolved by comparatively sudden periods of change - revolutions.
So the question was, why is it important to prove Darwin’s theory? Well, here’s one reason: in a hundred years time, or even sooner, someone could publish a theory that could completely overturn Darwin’s unproven one by contradicting it and revolutionise our thinking about where we come from.
Scientists nowadays still follow Darwin's methods - just in a bigger and better way. We are capable now of collecting so much more data and evidence than Darwin ever dreamed of - endless fossil banks and gene banks, to add to his comparisons of similar life forms that have developed in similar ways. Yet all we have is endless ‘stuff’ that we’ve listed and categorised and re-categorised again and again to fit Darwin’s theory of evolution.
But if we look up at the sky right now, we can see hundreds of different shaped clouds, all basically the same in that they are made up of similar elements and looking remarkably alike, even though they are all different. So do we then say that that proves there must have once been one big mother cloud that all these clouds originally came from?
Or we can look down at the blades of grass at our feet – so many, so similar, and yet each one different. So did they all come from one common ancestral blade of grass? And would listing and measuring and categorising them and fitting them into someone's theory about them make that so?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:23 am
by rich
Hmm - so how are we going to recognize the next step in evolution? And will it be better than us or worse? If we know so much about it, then we should be able to construct a theory of what the next step will be - yes?No?