Historical Mayan / African (by phenotype) American monarchs

[Minimalist]

Min. The male of the human species has such profligate sexual behavior that I am sure many a Neanderthal woman left unattended was the object of the amorous attention of many a HSS man.

I agree. As the comic, Lenny Bruce, once observed, "men would screw mud if they had to."

But we are facing this model of no HNS genetic contribution to modern humanity and until we get rid of that we'll never get any one to consider the possibility that Homo Erectus provided the basic stock which subsequently evolved into us.

Meanwhile, the idea of sea-borne contact from Africa to South America is something I find quite appealing.

[Digit]

Well the Monkeys made it Min!

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Meanwhile....





Columbus' great discovery was learning that the trade winds blew from the Canaries....but see how much shorter the distance from the West African coast to Brazil is and there is a convenient air current there as well. It is simply not that unthinkable.

[E.P. Grondine]

Meanwhile, the idea of sea-borne contact from Africa to South America is something I find quite appealing.

Hi minimalist -

While Paul is doing a better job of arguing cultural influences than Ivan van Sertima, there are also Asian trans-oceanic contact materials to consider. Ethnically, the Olmec and Mayan populations were B and D mitochondrial DNA haplogroup, i.l. Asian origin.

While we know contact from Africa occurred in later times, the question is how influential it was. The biggest problem here is the lack of excavation from coastal Africa. Cultural similarities are simply too weak to make a definitive statement - in other words "looks like" does not mean "is" or "were".

From Africa, you might want to consider emigration from the Sahara River region of Africa to the Pedra Furada, Brazil area ca. 35,000 BCE, with clovis technology spreading by sea north, and first appearing in coastal SE North America, then going up the rivers. While those people were largely killed off by impacts (and we're talking of an entire DNA haplogroup here), you might want to take a look at Ocanachee and Yuchee ethnographic materials, i.l Savanah River Culture. They had the appearance of North African berbers, but with a maximum male adult height of 5 feet.

The Cherokee called them Nunehi.

Unfortunately, most of this came to light after I finished my book. It will make it to a second edition, if there is one.

[Digit]

Which book was that?
Whilst accepting your argument in general about looks etc there is another side to it. Provided conditions do not result in genetic changes I can not see why that argument is not valid. After all, the African slaves into America and Europeans into America are still visibly Africans and Europeans.
Most of the Native American peoples that I am aware of on the western sea board for example would look perfectly at home on horseback in northern Asia and living in a Yurt.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Truthfully, at this point E.P., I'll be happy just to see the logjam of Clovis-First and pre/post Columbus broken so that all ideas can be considered.

Strides have been made along towards that goal, recently.

From Africa, you might want to consider emigration from the Sahara River region

Roughly the "Ivory Coast" area, if I recall correctly?

[PaulMarcW]

.
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EP, you wrote, "words "looks like" does not; mean "is" or "were."


I agree. In my own posts, that's why here

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... narchs.jpg

I use the word “analogies.” An “analogy” being a thing a step below fact; not equal to fact.

Does anyone have a comment on the following? This is NOT my work. A friend of mine wrote this to me in reply to the second monarch page in this thread:

<<"MORE AFRICAN-MAYAN ANALOGIES...">>
This is not necessary because all the world knows this important detail and have accepted this but they are still too silent, so far, like in the question of the Incas.
Ramses II had tabaco of Peru in the stomach and the court was using peruvian coca.
With Y-DNA of Amerind/Ecuador we can searc from YHRD something surprising.
2 of 102 Ecuador [Quichua]
Amerindian Latin America
1 of 58 Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea [Trobriands]
East Asian - Austronesian
Taking one mutation;
3 of 58 Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea [Trobriands]
East Asian - Austronesian Oceania / Australia
2 of 102 Ecuador [Quichua]
Amerindian
Another mutation that is changing relatively rapidly:
3 of 58 Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea [Trobriands]
East Asian - Austronesian Oceania / Australia
2 of 102 Ecuador [Quichua]
Amerindian Latin America
This is due the oil of Peruvian mummies about 1300 BC from Australian islands - they had a commercial route by sea!
Oil?
<<"Araucaria cunninghamii
There are two varieties:
Araucaria cunninghamii var. cunninghamii - Australia, from northeast New South Wales to east-central Queensland, at 0-1,000 m altitude.
Araucaria cunninghamii var. papuana – New Guinea, on the mountains of Papua New Guinea, and in Irian Jaya, Indonesia, at 100-2,700 m altitude.">>
If there is some reply that furthers this thinking, perhaps I might draw the author of the above may comment into the discussion. (I’d try).

[kbs2244]

I am watching all this with some detached interest.
I like PaulMarcW’s passion for the Afro centric point of view.
And I have my beliefs that there is no reason they, like many others, may have roamed the globe and influenced local cultures.

But I do not think they were alone.
It was a global economy, where the best raised to the top, regardless of their background.

The best modern parallel I can think of is US Professional football.
The US collage system is the accepted “pre-professional” try out system.
It is where most of the “Scouts” hang out.
But some times, on the team introductions, you will see some guy say he is from “XXX High School” instead of a collage.
I even heard one, once, live, and never again, say he was from “Louisiana Penitentiary System.”

My point is that the best rise to the top.
No matter the origin.
They may be Central African (Curly hair and thick lips.)
They may be North African (Egyptian or Libyan. Paler and thinner lipped.)
They may even have been from Denmark, or India, or China.

But, if they were good, they left their mark.
And when, for what ever reason, the trade went away, some survived and some died off.
Some were remembered in legend, and some were just forgotton sailors.
(Maybe with some genes spread around,)

[Cognito]

Michael Crawford did a comprehensive genetic analysis of Native Americans a few years back and came up with 97% of all mtDNA belonging to the A, B, C or D haplogroups. The remainder was probably the infamous X. Three of these groups were descended from Siberians - A, C and D. Haplogroup B appeared to enter the New World earlier than the others, sometime between 17Kya to 34Kya. Here's his C.V.:

http://www2.ku.edu/~lba/MHCCV.htm

Nowhere in any studies have I found reference to any African pre-Columbian genetic contribution. I don't care whether they were in the Americas early or not - I just don't see any convincing evidence. If they were running the place, I would expect to see their genetics spread all over the two continents, but it's missing. The male yDNA counterpart in the Americas appears to be limited to Q and C-3.

Give me something more to go on than skin color since that, by itself, is not a good indicator of genetic origin. Scientific publications are now stating that everyone was dark-skinned 10,000 years ago and that white skin and blue eyes are a recent phenomenon.

[Digit]

everyone was dark-skinned 10,000 years ago and that white skin and blue eyes are a recent phenomenon.

And that Cog is what I find so difficult to understand. We have a change from black to white in 10000 yrs that has spread throughout the entire European population and completely eradicated a black colouration.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I'm with Digit. I can't see how a gene...particularly the dominant gene...can be wiped out of an entire population in the span of 10,000 years.

[E.P. Grondine]

Michael Crawford did a comprehensive genetic analysis of Native Americans a few years back and came up with 97% of all mtDNA belonging to the A, B, C or D haplogroups. The remainder was probably the infamous X. Three of these groups were descended from Siberians - A, C and D. Haplogroup B appeared to enter the New World earlier than the others, sometime between 17Kya to 34Kya. Here's his C.V.:

http://www2.ku.edu/~lba/MHCCV.htm

Nowhere in any studies have I found reference to any African pre-Columbian genetic contribution. I don't care whether they were in the Americas early or not - I just don't see any convincing evidence. If they were running the place, I would expect to see their genetics spread all over the two continents, but it's missing. The male yDNA counterpart in the Americas appears to be limited to Q and C-3.

Give me something more to go on than skin color since that, by itself, is not a good indicator of genetic origin. Scientific publications are now stating that everyone was dark-skinned 10,000 years ago and that white skin and blue eyes are a recent phenomenon.

Take a good look at the Cambridge map of mt DNA haplogroups.

Due to my stroke I will simply state this here, without further citation or argument.

While C (Iroquoian) came through Berringia, there were two passages of A: Algonquin along the coast (the Great Turtle) and Siouxian hunters inland along the coastal strip (both sides of the mountain).

B and D were most likely water born from SE Asia.

X is associated with the Red Paint people, and also not too surprisingly shows up in Lebanon. My guess is that this population initially evolved in the Black Sea before it flooded, and that they are also ancestral to the Cardiod Pottery people.

As far as the Ocanachee and Yuchi, there are about 6 living Ocanachee descendants who I know of. The rest were killed by impact (Rio Cuarto and the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-Tsunami) with the remainder slaughtered and in the conquest, but I would not be surprised by their DNA surviving in the Amazon headwaters.

What Paul is arguing at a minimum is later African cultural influences. Given the lack of excavation data from the west coast of Africa, he's not doing too bad a job of it, IMO. That's not to endorse it, or to support it, its simply what I said: he's not doing too bad a job of making his argument.

[E.P. Grondine]

I'm with Digit. I can't see how a gene...particularly the dominant gene...can be wiped out of an entire population in the span of 10,000 years.

You need to read my book. It appears that between the Rio Cuarto impacts and the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-Tsunami, nearly an entire mt DNA haplogroup was extincted, with the remainder slaughtered in the conquest.

Take a look here:
http://www.csasi.org/states/nsc/baucom/baucom15.htm

Note the grey sand stratum proceeding Tuscarora emigration into the area, what the excavators phase a "Kay-Stemmed like" Tennessee-Alabama point "hardly worth considering".

Several acquaintances of mine are working through impact mega-tsunami, and I am looking for help on stratum overlaying Savannah River Culture strata. Any help would be appreciated. Again, what we're looking for here is other differentiated sterile strata overlying Savannah River strata, no matter the color.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
(a damn fine book if I do say so myself. Hundreds of pages of small type filled with typos, not enough illustrations, and in addition to all of this, it has a correction sheet pasted inside its front cover.)

[E.P. Grondine]

Truthfully, at this point E.P., I'll be happy just to see the logjam of Clovis-First and pre/post Columbus broken so that all ideas can be considered.

What's funny about the current Clovis over strike tech speculation is that it has to be "Solutrean", in other words European, and could not have come from a source far nearer but further south: Africa.

Roughly the "Ivory Coast" area, if I recall correctly?

There are a couple of rivers that run south of the Atlas mountains and exit to the South Atlantic. That's where I'd look for the jumping off point for the Pedra Furada people. Of course, with sea level rise since the ice sheet melt the coastal sites could be under 100 feet of water, so you'd have to re-imagine the landscape to find a really good site.

[Minimalist]

I ran a search for "Great Atlantic Impact Mega-Tsunami" and didn't get many hits.

That, in and of itself means nothing. I recall when we were discussing the Pokotia Monolith and the Fuente Magna bowl that the mainstream archaeological community gave them a great big leaving alone, as well. Still, maybe you could give us the lowdown in 25 words or less since it doesn't seem that anyone else will.