Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

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Rokcet Scientist

Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

uniface wrote:
Digit wrote:
As I see it, we were released into the wild.
:lol: :lol:

Actually, I've been thinking our ancestors were the Ozzies of the galaxy. Undesirables from the mother planet, moved to planet Terra, banished really, and left to fend for ourselves with the occassional exception of visitors from the home planet.
So they speak English there too?

:lol: :lol:
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Digit
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Digit »

So...when exactly did Charles Darwin discover DNA?
Sorry Min, I don't get that.

Well it shows how small a change is necessary to have profound results Uniface.
And no, evolution has no goal, it simply selects that which is best suited to the prevailing conditions.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Minimalist »

Someone over there said something about Darwin not explaining where DNA came from. That's a bit like claiming that the Greek who invented the ballista was a phony because he also did not explain how clusterbomb munitions were made.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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JSteen
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by JSteen »

To be fair, I think that what they're saying is that evolution doesn't account for viruses which apparently predate cellular animals and yet need cells in order to reproduce. (I think that's what they said). Again, they keep talking about Darwin when I think they mean the theory of evolution.

I was curious about the virus thing and it rang some bells so I looked at Dawkins' 'Tale of the Ancestor,' and yes, he talks about initial life springing from RNA managing to replicate itself without cells. They've done this in a lab - just dropped some RNA in a soup with the necessary enzyme it needs for replication and it does it - and mutates - with no cells around. The question then is did RNA enounter the necessary enzyme in the wild and life sprang forth from there (in less that perfect laboratory condisions). Maybe.

Anyway, the point is, a virus wouldn't need a cell to replicate if it just found the enzyme in the wild (that' all it needs the cell for - producing the enzyme). I'm no scientist and can't speak to this myself and I don't think I want to start citing Richard Dawkins over there since I'm doubting he has a lot of credibility with the "anti-Darwin" people.
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by kbs2244 »

Since I have views that I doubt will change on this subject
I will just jump in here with one point.

Even at the highest levels of belief, it is still called
“The Theory of Evolution,”
not
“The Law of Evolution.”

It simply hasn’t been proved.

(Not that any of the alternatives have been.)

But we sure have come a long way from Calico, CA
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Digit »

I missed that Min. Nine times out of ten all people know about Darwin is 'survival of the fittest' and 'humans are descended from monkeys'. Neither of which of course, he ever said.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Digit »

You don't expect us to stay on subject do you kb?

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Minimalist »

kbs2244 wrote:Since I have views that I doubt will change on this subject
I will just jump in here with one point.

Even at the highest levels of belief, it is still called
“The Theory of Evolution,”
not
“The Law of Evolution.”

It simply hasn’t been proved.

(Not that any of the alternatives have been.)

But we sure have come a long way from Calico, CA

I daresay, kb, this fellow is talking about you.

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm
Lay people often misinterpret the language used by scientists. And for that reason, they sometimes draw the wrong conclusions as to what the scientific terms mean.

Three such terms that are often used interchangeably are "scientific law," "hypothesis," and "theory."

In layman’s terms, if something is said to be “just a theory,” it usually means that it is a mere guess, or is unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true.
If there is one maxim that applies fully to creationists it is that "a little knowledge" is a dangerous thing.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Minimalist »

They've done this in a lab - just dropped some RNA in a soup with the necessary enzyme it needs for replication and it does it - and mutates - with no cells around. The question then is did RNA enounter the necessary enzyme in the wild and life sprang forth from there (in less that perfect laboratory condisions). Maybe.


I hate to start the "impact" stuff again but wasn't there some Japanese researcher a few years ago who reported that an asteroid/comet hit in the ocean could have provided exactly the chemicals needed and the energy to start the process. The only Japanese name coming to me at the moment is Matsui, and I know it wasn't him.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Ishtar »

Guys... come on.. let's show a bit of respect for Virginia Steen-Mcintyre please.

Virginia can hardly be a Young Earth Creationist if she's saying her human-created artefacts are 250,000 years old.

It may come as a surprise to you, but there are a lot of very intelligent scientists out there questioning aspects of Darwinism, and they're not Young Earth Creationists either.

You can read all about it in the next Pleistocene Coalition Newsletter, out in a few weeks time.
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by JSteen »

I'm sorry, I was being as respectful as I could - I was trying to understand what anti-Darwinism meant. I still don't understand. Is it a rejection of evolution or not? I am burning with curiousity as to what it is that Ms. Steen-Mcintyre *does* think when she rejects Darwin in the context of the V. site.

I was surprised to find all this "anti-Darwinism" within a supposedly scientific context. I didn't realize there were people outside of the young-earth creationists who objected to the theory of evolution. I mean, even the Catholic Church is cool with evolution. I'm trying to understand who wouldn't be and why and what their alternative is.

I read an interview with Ms. Steen-Mcintyre and she says she's unhappy with Darwinism because it ruined her career. I'm not sure that's a valid reason to reject a scientific theory, but whatever, people are complex. Certainly it shouldn't have ruined her career, and apparently the scientific establishment dropped the ball there, but it doesn't follow that the theory of evolution is wrong because of it.
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Minimalist »

Darwin is not around to defend himself so people are free to use his name with abandon.

He, himself, did not deal with abiogenesis but some people are just bound and determined to try to stretch what he said to cover their own little pet projects.

In Chapter XI of Origin of Species he talks about "Centres of Creation"

http://www.literature.org/authors/darwi ... er-11.html
In discussing this subject, we shall be enabled at the same time to consider a point equally important for us, namely, whether the several distinct species of a genus, which on my theory have all descended from a common progenitor, can have migrated (undergoing modification during some part of their migration) from the area inhabited by their progenitor. If it can be shown to be almost invariably the case, that a region, of which most of its inhabitants are closely related to, or belong to the same genera with the species of a second region, has probably received at some former period immigrants from this other region, my theory will be strengthened; for we can clearly understand, on the principle of modification, why the inhabitants of a region should be related to those of another region, whence it has been stocked. A volcanic island, for instance, upheaved and formed at the distance of a few hundreds of miles from a continent, would probably receive from it in the course of time a few colonists, and their descendants, though modified, would still be plainly related by inheritance to the inhabitants of the continent. Cases of this nature are common, and are, as we shall hereafter more fully see, inexplicable on the theory of independent creation. This view of the relation of species in one region to those in another, does not differ much (by substituting the word variety for species) from that lately advanced in an ingenious paper by Mr Wallace, in which he concludes, that `every species has come into existence coincident both in space and time with a pre-existing closely allied species.' And I now know from correspondence, that this coincidence he attributes to generation with modification.

The previous remarks on `single and multiple centres of creation' do not directly bear on another allied question, namely whether all the individuals of the same species have descended from a single pair, or single hermaphrodite, or whether, as some authors suppose, from many individuals simultaneously created. With those organic beings which never intercross (if such exist), the species, on my theory, must have descended from a succession of improved varieties, which will never have blended with other individuals or varieties, but will have supplanted each other; so that, at each successive stage of modification and improvement, all the individuals of each variety will have descended from a single parent. But in the majority of cases, namely, with all organisms which habitually unite for each birth, or which often intercross, I believe that during the slow process of modification the individuals of the species will have been kept nearly uniform by intercrossing; so that many individuals will have gone on simultaneously changing, and the whole amount of modification will not have been due, at each stage, to descent from a single parent. To illustrate what I mean: our English racehorses differ slightly from the horses of every other breed; but they do not owe their difference and superiority to descent from any single pair, but to continued care in selecting and training many individuals during many generations.

In fact, he seems far more concerned with the mechanism of dispersal than the mechanism of "creation."
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Digit »

In fact Min one of his suggestions was that natural selection fixed species by virtue of numbers, that large changes within a species was unlikely where there was a large population, only in isolation could his 'variations' take over.
Unfortunately his book is not exactly easy going, I found myself re reading almost every paragraph, and with dictionary in the other hand.

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by JSteen »

Are people saying that Charles Darwin was interested in where life originally came from?

I'm still trying to understand why those who seem to be anti-evolution are fixating on Charles Darwin. SO much work has been done since Darwin - do they accept all of that? What about Wallace? He came up with the idea of natural selection independently and concurrently. What am I missing with all this attention on Charles Darwin?

Is it just a way of giving the issue a face? Trying to set Darwin up as an alternate deity - a sort of straw god-man? That won't work. Charles Darwin is not a religious figure. He came up with a scientific theory, not a belief system. Scientific theories stand and fall based on proofs - the very opposite of belief systems. If the theory of evolution were to fall tomorrow because it was proven wrong and some other theory better fit the facts, scientists would rejoice because we'd be one stop closer to understanding how the universe really works.
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Re: Calico Site (California, +/- 200K Ago)

Post by Minimalist »

Unfortunately his book is not exactly easy going

Neither is the bible, Dig. Probably why most creationists don't read it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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