Archaeologica.org

"Meaning is a tricky thing for archaeologists since we have no one to talk to, and the
native inheritors of the Anasazi territory may have their own ideas."

Therein lies one problem with your apparat.

What you don't know about SW ethnography and archaeo-astronomy fills several books, and could fill several more, though one might be sufficient.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Chris, your assumption seems to be that the early population you propose was Ainu related, and not C mt DNA related. The lack of Asian artifact parallels set out at your site is bothersome.

The other issue is that you seem to assume that if only the Kennewick remains are studied, then the validity of your hypothesis will be confirmed.

I've discussed this issue with one of the Grande Ronde's cultural preservation officers, and while my view differs from his, and his own view differed from that of others within the Grande Ronde, I can assure you that they did not take the actions they did simply to frustrate archaeologists.

kbs2244 wrote:I think you are right Min.

Note that in the news release the term used is “Paleo Americans”
That tells you it was not released in the US by a US sponsored discover.

In the U S they are “Paleo-Indian.“

That is a sop to the political dollars of the current “Native Americans.”

That term has the prefix “paleo“ in it as a key to the professional but also the word “Indian” in it because it is assumed that 98 percent of the readers don’t know what “paleo” means.
So everybody can continue to assume that the current tribes were indeed the “first.”

This is a refreshingly outside the US sphere of influence news release.

Uhh, kb, you'd be surprised at the number of Brazilians who have Native ancestry.

Tiompan -- in terms of age, Chetro Ketl was a century or so older than the Aztec GK?

"Chris, your assumption seems to be that the early population you propose was Ainu related, and not C mt DNA related."
Whaaaatttt???? Who said anything about Ainu. Ainu was around for 250-400,000 years????? Who says????? Need to get your timeline straight.

______________________

"The lack of Asian artifact parallels set out at your site is bothersome."
That's a great idea. I would love to do that project and will start in on it as soon as you can send the check.
_____________________________
Chris said-
"Meaning is a tricky thing for archaeologists since we have no one to talk to, and the
native inheritors of the Anasazi territory may have their own ideas."
EC said-
Therein lies one problem with your apparat.
What you don't know about SW ethnography and archaeo-astronomy fills several books, and could fill several more, though one might be sufficient."

I taught a fucking college class about the SW. What do you mean, what I don't know about ... fills several volumes.
Jeez, I never ever talked to you, ever, and you come across all bitchy. what the hell do you know what I read and didn't?
Since you're such a know it all, where is the Winter Solstice feature at Casa Grande Ruins?
And please can the 'tude. Quite unbecoming.

hardaker wrote:Tiompan -- in terms of age, Chetro Ketl was a century or so older than the Aztec GK?

Thanks Chris , wouldn't make any difference to the astronomy though ,as long as it was only solar or lunar .
A quick guess at the question for EP , surely much too easy , would be a "hole in the wall" (at the SE , or is that too obvious ?) . Can't find a plan for Casa Grande only pics ,grrrr

George

hardaker wrote: "Chris, your assumption seems to be that the early population you propose was Ainu related, and not C mt DNA related."
Whaaaatttt???? Who said anything about Ainu. Ainu was around for 250-400,000 years????? Who says????? Need to get your timeline straight.

Thanks, that brings some peace of mind.
Impacts are wonderful for chronological work.

hardaker wrote: "The lack of Asian artifact parallels set out at your site is bothersome."
That's a great idea. I would love to do that project and will start in on it as soon as you can send the check.

Know what you mean there.

hardaker wrote: Chris said-
"Meaning is a tricky thing for archaeologists since we have no one to talk to, and the
native inheritors of the Anasazi territory may have their own ideas."
EP said-
Therein lies one problem with your apparat.
What you don't know about SW ethnography and archaeo-astronomy fills several books, and could fill several more, though one might be sufficient."

I taught a fucking college class about the SW. What do you mean, what I don't know about ... fills several volumes.

What I said. It's amazing to me that someone ever hired you to teach on the SW.

hardaker wrote: Jeez, I never ever talked to you, ever, and you come across all bitchy. what the hell do you know what I read and didn't?

Your comments and questions on SW archaeo-astronomy reveal what you haven't read or studied.

The people living today in the area remember the old ones.

hardaker wrote: Since you're such a know it all, where is the Winter Solstice feature at Casa Grande Ruins?

.... Not my job.

hardaker wrote: And please can the 'tude. Quite unbecoming.

There's a special on "Man and Impact in the Americas" over at http://cosmictusk.com
Chapter 18 is "The State of North American Anthropology".

Tiompan wrote:

hardaker wrote: A quick guess at the question for EP , surely much too easy , would be a "hole in the wall" (at the SE , or is that too obvious) ?.
George

Its obvious to some people, George.
:p)

E.P. Grondine wrote: You need to spend some time with a better book - may I suggest "Man and Impact in the Americas"?
It handles questions like "How did those two human populations differentiate?" Bet you "First Americans..." did not handle that one.
It also covers archaeo astronomy, with more to come in the second edition.
I have not done Kindle, and now the iPad has come along.
All kidding aside, let us take a few minutes to remember Frank Hibben, pioneering archaeologist, brain injured war vet, who then endured vicious academic attack.

Hey, EP. I'm deftly grasping your wit and I certainly looked through Amazon hoping for a digital copy of Man and Impact. As none was to be found, I moved on to my local library and upon finding nothing there, tried to steal it from Scribd.com only to be stymied again. I would love to read it but not at $35 or really even in paperback. I much prefer digital copies these days. Johnny == AlphaGeek.

Sorry for the days between posts. Had to disappear to Erie, PA for a family emergency. I'll be catching up today.

Chris , I've just done a comparison of the axes and four solstice azimuths of the Kivas at Pueblo Bonito ,Chetro Ketl and Aztec Ruins Casa Rinconada and Pueblo del Arroyo The most striking points to me were there there is quite a bit of leeway for the axes e.g. AZ = 332 , PB = 358 and CR =360 (this measurement can be contentious I was taking it from the centre of the Kiva to the centre of what Morris calls the peripheral rooms i.e the section that juts out from the main building ) The differences in azimuths for the summer solstice rises and sets vary by 6-8 degrees for both but the winter solstice rise and sets are much tighter i.e. 1-2.5 degrees with the winter solstice sun rise being varying from 120 -122 (the one exception here is CR which is 125.5) .The winter solstice sun set is quite close too at maximum difference of 2.5 degrees (once again CR) As I'm only using the GE and the best plans that I can get it is never going to be as good as a theodolite survey but it's unlikely to be too “out “ . What this limited data may suggest is that the axes are less important than the siting in relation to the winter solstice sun rise and to a lessser extent winter solstice sun set . As mentioned previously the only example where the 60 degree difference is close is A.R.

George

Johnny wrote:

E.P. Grondine wrote: You need to spend some time with a better book - may I suggest "Man and Impact in the Americas"?
It handles questions like "How did those two human populations differentiate?" Bet you "First Americans..." did not handle that one.
It also covers archaeo astronomy, with more to come in the second edition.
I have not done Kindle, and now the iPad has come along.
All kidding aside, let us take a few minutes to remember Frank Hibben, pioneering archaeologist, brain injured war vet, who then endured vicious academic attack.

Hey, EP. I'm deftly grasping your wit and I certainly looked through Amazon hoping for a digital copy of Man and Impact. As none was to be found, I moved on to my local library and upon finding nothing there, tried to steal it from Scribd.com only to be stymied again. I would love to read it but not at $35 or really even in paperback. I much prefer digital copies these days. Johnny == AlphaGeek.

Sorry for the days between posts. Had to disappear to Erie, PA for a family emergency. I'll be catching up today.

Hi Johnny - Even though its worth $35, forget amazon, and go to http://cosmictusk.com for the Dead Car Special.

Blessings and prayers for your family.

Hi George. Great to have those axes down. Asked about CK because I thought it was the last gk built at Chaco prior to the Aztec GK. Interesting that the WS is tighter. You ever bumped into a guy named Stein? One thing that really stymied my squaring a kiva hypothesis is that Judd never took the outer measurments of the outer walls of the great kiva, only the inner side of the outer wall. Still, I think the design hypothesis is sound insofar as it provides a do-able methodology that doesn't require western higher maths. The hexagon's central angles matching pretty close to the azimuth was accidental icing. It was fascinating to hear that Chaco went through building cycles based on tree ring corellations with an 11 year solar cycle (again, heard about this over a decade ago, might have changed since then).

At Casa Grande, the big house has the famous SS sunset port looking northwest. The Winter Solstice indicator was never found, and was assumed to be built into one of the other buildings that is now gone. Maybe. But there is an incredible WS line over at Compound B, apparently discovered by yours truly in 1985 according to Dr. Malloy who, with a UAz astronomer, did some of the key work back in 1971. Next time you're at the Ruins site, get permission to stand on top of the double mounded Compound B, specifically the southern mound, and look toward the SW horizon and locate Tabletop Peak, extremely visible on the horizon as a flat ridge (pseudo mesa). Between it and the compound, you will see a small hill called Black Butte (probably name, if memory serves, and due south of the local community college out there). Tabletop and Black Butte make a natural WS alignment; seems the Hohokam realized this and memorialized it with the compound, an early Classic construction. But the spot also has a long 800 year history about, garnered from a slew of burials excavated many decades ago. The WS line heads NE through Adamsville and Escalante, but I never followed it up. Possibly with GoogleEarth one could tell if there is any direct association with the Hohokam sites back there. Better yet, it might be a very fruitful line to walk for a survey.

Chris , Due to me living in the UK and never having visited Chaco ,the answer to meeting Stein etc is sadly , all negatives .But maybe one day . I'll check the compound B , SW line on Google earth but may have trouble locating the hill names .

George

Hi George,

Temporarily lost the data and pics of the CG winter solstice line during my last move, but hope to find them soon, and will post on my site. But anyone in or around Arizona can visit the site and, with permission, shoot a pic from atop Compound B to capture the incredible alignment.

242 degrees is the actual ws sunset angle from Compound B, but the natural line is about two degrees greater than that at about 244 degrees where it sets behind Tabletop Peak. Some would say, aha, it is not exactly the solstice line therefore it is not. Folks in the archae-astronomy world in the SW however would call this disparity significant since it could act, culturally, as a heralding point, a harbinger of the actual WS. To travel those two degrees, it takes three weeks, ergo: Dec. 1 and Jan. 10 are the dates you want to be present at Compound B to see the sun bisect Tabletop Peak. Quite grand. Tried to do a paper on it for American Antiquity back in the 80s, and though two astronomers accepted it, the archaeology reviewer at the Arizona St. Museum canned it during peer review because -- get this: because there were postholes on top of the compound mound, it meant there was a structure. Since there was a structure, it meant you could not actually see the sunset event. Therefore, this was not a recognized winter solstice alignment.

The astronomers I spoke with in response to this either laughed out loud or were incredulous that the archaeologist reviewing the paper was actually serious. Yet, it was enough to kill it in its tracks. But for any pro or student in AZ wondering about a paper to do, or a thesis or dissertation, this is one tasty nugget that could align a whole string of significant sites and/or solar features along its SW-NE path, with CG pretty much the major node. Just an idea, but talk about a cultural landscape worth investigating!!

Hope you get a chance to visit the SW sometime.

hardaker wrote: It was fascinating to hear that Chaco went through building cycles based on tree ring corellations with an 11 year solar cycle (again, heard about this over a decade ago, might have changed since then).

Fascinating, indeed. Here's a paper from April of last year to catch us up: http://escholarship.org/uc/item/1qv786mc