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Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:52 am
by Minimalist
I thought we were talking about South Africa.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:01 pm
by Tiompan
Minimalist wrote:I thought we were talking about South Africa.
I thought we were talking about beads and the earliest secure finds of .
George
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:57 pm
by Minimalist
Let's drag the topic back on point then.
http://archaeology.org/blog/?p=1071
Until recently, many archaeologists believed in an event they dubbed the Great Leap Forward, or the Upper Paleolithic Revolution. Some 40,000 to 50,000 years ago, they theorized, Homo sapiens sapiens underwent some kind of neural reorganization—perhaps due to a genetic mutation–and suddenly became accomplished artists, jewelry makers, fishers, and sophisticated tool makers.
Dissenting archaeologists, however, suggested that the transition to behavioral modernity was a gradual affair unfolding over hundreds of thousands of years. And recently evidence of a slow transition has accumulated. At Blombos Cave in South Africa, for example, archaeologists found 75,000-year-old shell beads, 80,000 year-old bone tools, as well as possible evidence of fishing—all indicators pointing to modern thinking and behavior.
Now Lombard and Phillipson have come up with superb evidence of a much more sophisticated human behavior—the making of bows and arrows– 64,000 years ago.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:46 pm
by Rokcet Scientist
Minimalist wrote:Let's drag the topic back on point then.
http://archaeology.org/blog/?p=1071
Now Lombard and Phillipson have come up with superb evidence of a much more sophisticated human behavior—the making of bows and arrows– 64,000 years ago.
Excuse me, but how would that jive with boating by 800 KYA? Building and operating a 'boat' requires logical reasoning, spatial perspective, projected imagination, and, most important of all:
coordinated collaboration! I.o.w.: language!
According to the HS 'sudden intelligence infusion' subscribers those human 'qualities' were not present in hominids prior to say 75 KYA (depending on one's slant). Which is the same as denying that boating could exist prior to 75 KYA.
You've always been a firm supporter of HE boating. And I seem to remember you quoting Bednarik on many occasions. So I take it you can't possibly subscribe to this 'sudden intelligence infusion' of HS, this 'The Awakening Of Humanity' concept. That's just another BS Genesis fairy tale.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:06 am
by Digit
One of the questions associated with some of the harder materials used as beads is simple, how did they drill them?
An electron microscope might answer that, but AFAIK no one has tried it, yet.
Taking George's view I would point out that development of the technique, for drilling stones for example, takes a lot more thought, and patience, than simply buying a drill today and drilling a hole with it.
I can suggest a number of methods that might have been used, but none of them are exactly rapid! The driving force behind such an activity must have been considerable.
Roy.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:11 am
by Minimalist
Posting an article does not imply agreeing with every suggestion in it.
However, this article disparages the "Great Leap Forward" concept and uses the existence of the beads (at 75k ypb) and now archery ( at 64k ybp) at those earlier dates as evidence to do so. As you well know I agree about the boats but not every discussion has to be about them.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:00 am
by Tiompan
Digit wrote:One of the questions associated with some of the harder materials used as beads is simple, how did they drill them?
An electron microscope might answer that, but AFAIK no one has tried it, yet.
Taking George's view I would point out that development of the technique, for drilling stones for example, takes a lot more thought, and patience, than simply buying a drill today and drilling a hole with it.
I can suggest a number of methods that might have been used, but none of them are exactly rapid! The driving force behind such an activity must have been considerable.
Roy.
Bednarik did and noted that 6mm is the smallest a bead can reasonably ground down to . The beads from the Libyan Acheulian were this diameter , a replica took about 20 minutes . The drillers were working at the limits and this appears to have been the point (intentional pun ).
George
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:04 am
by Digit
What was the drill George?
Small beads might be more difficult to handle but all things being equal somewhat quicker than a larger one to produce.
Roy.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:29 am
by Tiompan
Digit wrote:What was the drill George?
Small beads might be more difficult to handle but all things being equal somewhat quicker than a larger one to produce.
Roy.
He only says it's a stone drill , drills from one side as soon as the drill breaks through the hole is reamed out from the other side .
There may be more info by the same author in "The role of Pleistocene beads in documenting human cognition " Rock Art Research 14 (1997).
I don't have that and not many unis take it either .
George
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:16 pm
by Rokcet Scientist
Aren't we ignoring clay beads? Much easier and quicker to make than drilling through rock or shell. More easily perishable too of course.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:30 pm
by Digit
I wasn't RS, I am particularly interested in how the harder materials were drilled. Frankly I have difficulty in accepting that stone drills could be made small enough to drill tiny holes in hard materials to any depth.
Even drilling ivory to make needles is quite an accomplishment.
Roy.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:31 pm
by Rokcet Scientist
Minimalist wrote:As you well know I agree about the boats but not every discussion has to be about them.
Of course not, but if you
do subscribe to HE boating, then you subscribe to HE being capable of logical reasoning, spatial perspective, projected imagination, and coordinated collaboration (language)!
And that shines a whole different light on anything that supposedly followed.
It's not very logical to assume that it took hominids with those capabilities 700,000 years to develop beads, and bows and arrows.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:18 pm
by Minimalist
then you subscribe to HE being capable of logical reasoning, spatial perspective, projected imagination, and coordinated collaboration (language)!
Yes but we have no evidence of cosmetic or symbolic use going back that far. We can speculate that HE had some sea-going capacity because they reached islands to which they could have only sailed or flew and I'm not ready to grant them the invention of the airplane at this time.
Is it reasonable that there would have been some degree of personal decoration? Yes. But I cannot assert that because I find something reasonable that it must be true. To do that would be 'religious.'
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:42 pm
by Rokcet Scientist
Minimalist wrote:then you subscribe to HE being capable of logical reasoning, spatial perspective, projected imagination, and coordinated collaboration (language)!
Yes but we have no evidence of cosmetic or symbolic use going back that far. We can speculate that HE had some sea-going capacity because they reached islands to which they could have only sailed or flew and I'm not ready to grant them the invention of the airplane at this time.
Is it reasonable that there would have been some degree of personal decoration? Yes. But I cannot assert that because I find something reasonable that it must be true. To do that would be 'religious.'
Huh?
I hadn't noticed religions were reasonable... unless that is newspeak for jihad and inquisition of course!
But anyway, I was on about 'likelihood', not 'assertion'.
No assertion without evidence. Goes without saying.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:00 am
by Minimalist
They think they are being reasonable.
To believe in the unreasonable IS reasonable if you are of that particular disposition.