Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Fortunately I'm too thick to be insulted Min!That's what I love about you, Dig. You catch on quickly!
...and I only deal in plagues of fleas and locusts BTW.Security from whom?
Let me just make sure what you and the president are saying.
Are you telling us that if the EU were to fold you Europeans would promptly start killing each other again?
In my case from you, and from Germany, and from Belgium, and from France, and from Spain. In your case it's a different list. Etc. etc. I.o.w. from neighbouring countries.Digit wrote:This was the question RS...
Security from whom?
OK, if that's inconvenient we'll honor an armistice of a week.Let me just make sure what you and the president are saying.
Are you telling us that if the EU were to fold you Europeans would promptly start killing each other again?
So in other words without the EU to hold your hands you can't keep your hands off each other's throats. Well the next time you mindless morons decide to start slaughtering each don't rely on the Brits and Americans to come and rescue you again, we've had enough of it. Now you also know why we do not wish to be part of the EU dream, or should that be nightmare I wonder?In my case from you, and from Germany, and from Belgium, and from France, and from Spain. In your case it's a different list. Etc. etc. I.o.w. from neighbouring countries.
Dream on! You couldn't if you wanted to, Roy: the two of you are dead-broke. Poor as a church rat. Delusions of past grandeur. The emperor's new clothes.Digit wrote:So in other words without the EU to hold your hands you can't keep your hands off each other's throats. Well the next time you mindless morons decide to start slaughtering each don't rely on the Brits and Americans to come and rescue you again, we've had enough of it.
"We"?Now you also know why we do not wish to be part of the EU dream, or should that be nightmare I wonder?
In case you've been doing a Rip Van Winkle your masters won't allow us a choice, the last time they gave you a choice your country voted no! Remember?Your choice.
The Greek people is in trouble, so it is bailed out by it's fellow €uro members. So will Ireland be, if push comes to shove. The UK can forget that, of course. And I don't see the US picking up the slack either, because they couldn't if they wanted to: they're totally broke.Digit wrote:Yep we're broke, whilst Greece has had to to bailed out by the Germans, France is cutting back as well, Ireland looks as though it's going broke! Welcome to the club!
Yeah, just like Obama's "changes"...10 Million CCTV cameras? How many fingers have you got? I would also point out that the 4.5 Million CCTV cameras were under the auspices of the last lot of loony lefties and are now being restricted, along with some of their other anti freedom restrictions.
Yep, dependent on equals! Not big brother! Quite a difference.Dependency? By your own statement you are dependent on Big Mama keeping you from starting WW3!
"You lot" weren't even there! "You lot" sat on your hands, tut-tutted, and had tea and scones in the garden back home patting your dogs and horses! So "you lot" are the last to be justified to criticize.You defined the area of Europe earlier but 'conveniently' omitted the Balkans, and the last time they fought you lot sat on your hands and tut tutted!
...as your 'corrupt' leaders already did 300 years ago.The leaders are so corrupt that they have voted them selves immunity from prosecution to out of court,
Funny you should say that as your big friends have refused to ratify the International Criminal Court since 2002 because they are (justly) afraid that their leaders would find themselves in that court for war crimes...!whilst the Hague is about to sit in judgement of some African leaders for, wait for it! Curruption!!
In Europe you can help shape your own future and the collective European future, and legally vote as an equal European, and still retain your Britishness (You gave me a choice. I'll choose American dependency rather than dependency on the EUSSR!
). With the US you are dependent on what they decide to do or leave! You don't have any legal say in it. Unless you give up your Britishness ( ) and become Americans... because the alternative is not giving it up and powerless begging in DC.We've not heard of the IMF then? If Greece and Ireland were not locked into the Euro they would have retained the same control over their own fiscal arrangements that we have, would they not?You see: members of the club help each other if they can.
Non-members, of their own choosing, are on their own of course.
Some, not many to date as the contracts have to expire first. The fact that you may not have CCTV cameras in Holland does not exactly mean that you are not being watched does it? The Deuxieme Bureau and the Stasi managed pretty well without did they not?So how many of those cameras have actually been removed since Cameron came on the scene...?
I don't think Min need to worry about Altzeimers, your memory is shot to pieces. If it wan't for our la-di-da friends in Washington you'd be conducting your half of this 'debate' in German. Are you beyond being grateful?Thanks to our la-di-da 'friends' in Washington.
Yeah! So we'll try Hitler, Jack the Ripper and Oliver Cromwell. Bit pointless wouldn't you say?So The Hague would sit in judgment of First World war criminals
In case you haven't notice you have given up your Dutch passport in exchange for an EU one, along with your Driver's License as well.Unless you give up your Britishness
Would those 'equals' include the Roma that France is shipping out as fast as they can?Yep, dependent on equals!
They are indeed, and you dodged my point again, which was that the last time they went to war the EU sat on its hands. Once again it was America and Britain, through NATO, that enforced peace, yes?The Balkans are slap bang in the middle of geographical Europe.
Right, as I recall the last time your armed forces had a gun pointed at them they ran up the White Flag and allowed the Bosnian Muslims to be slaughtered by the Serbs. Remember?Hypocritical war criminals!
as your 'corrupt' leaders already did 300 years ago.
Quite where you got that idea from I do not know, but for your info three of ours will be facing a court in January on corruption charges. There must be a number of uncivilised countries out there as the Americans can impeach even their President, same in China, India, Australia and probably many I do not know about. And quite what is so 'civilised' about placing anybody above the law escapes me.FYI: it is standard procedure in every civilized country that sitting governors are immune from prosecution
The IMF picks up less than 10% of the tab.Digit wrote:We've not heard of the IMF then?
Yes, and they would have been on their own. Like the UK is. So they would go belly up.If Greece and Ireland were not locked into the Euro they would have retained the same control over their own fiscal arrangements that we have, would they not?
The Germans may not like it (would you?) but they DO help, because that was the deal. The consequence of reneging on that deal would be that they ostracised themselves from (the rest of) Europe (and probably make it collapse entirely). And apparently they feel that begrudgingly honoring their word and staying with the European concept is more advantageous to them in the long run than refusing to play ball now.As for helping each other out etc, the German people didn't seem too happy about it did they? Merkel's popularity went through the floor did it not?
Grateful? To whom? To the Yanks who only cut in in WWII when they realised they needed a market for their own economy to be able to grow? Because that's what they did: liberating Europe was the simple establishment/retaining – nay: conquering – of the most profitable market in the world. The US' involvement in WWII wasn't philantropical, my friend. It was well-considered self-interest = pure egotism. A m.o. they are repeating in Iraq and Afghanistan. This time not for the market, but for the resources. Pure amoral self-interest. Philanthropy has nothing to do with it. That was the smoke & mirrors you fell for.I don't think Min need to worry about Altzeimers, your memory is shot to pieces. If it wan't for our la-di-da friends in Washington you'd be conducting your half of this 'debate' in German. Are you beyond being grateful?
Quite. And that suggestion is nonsense as well of course.So we'll try Hitler, Jack the Ripper and Oliver Cromwell. Bit pointless wouldn't you say?
Indeed, I haven't noticed. Because you're talking complete nonsense: I still have a Dutch passport, I have no European passport. There is no such thing as a European passport. Non-existent. Just like drivers licenses: there is no such thing as a European drivers licence. You're seeing ghosts.In case you haven't notice you have given up your Dutch passport in exchange for an EU one, along with your Driver's License as well.
No, because with the exception of the currency it is all total bullshit! Fantasy! Figments of your imagination! Every European country still has its own Head of State, control over its borders, fiscal control, Diplomatic Service, control over its own law making processes, etc. etc.Like your country hasn't given up your Head of State, control over its borders, fiscal control, Diplomatic Service, currency, control over its own law making processes, need I continue?
But conveniently not on war crimes charges!three of ours will be facing a court in January on corruption charges.
They are not placed above the law. They are immune from prosecution for as long as they are in function (exactly like your PM). For practical reasons: so as not to be tied up in court when you have a country to run. A subtlety that apparently escapes you too. But they are perfectly prosecutable following that.what is so 'civilised' about placing anybody above the law escapes me.
I was referring to pre the EU, not Greece's situation.The IMF picks up less than 10% of the tab.
Plus all the other EU members who are not in the Euro of course.Yes, and they would have been on their own. Like the UK is.
About which they had no say, even Merkel said they wouldn't bail out the Greeks at first, then did a U turn, yes?The Germans may not like it (would you?) but they DO help, because that was the deal.
That's strange, I thought it was due to the fact that Germany declared war on them, or did I imagine that?To the Yanks who only cut in in WWII when they realised they needed a market for their own economy to be able to grow?
And did your country benefit from their aid or not?The US' involvement in WWII wasn't philantropical, my friend. It was well-considered self-interest = pure egotism.
So will your country, which I take it has ratified the accord, try those Dutch forces who abandoned the Bosnian Muslims to their fate? Pots and kettles there I think.The EU does not issue such documents directly they do it through their agents in the subordinate countries. If you doubt the validity of my statement try using a Dutch passport from before your EU membership.if the ICC were ratified we could try current war criminals. Like Dubya, Cheney, Powell, and a dozen others. Because they illegally started a couple wars which killed hundreds of thousands.
Name your Head of State, like it or not it's that little Begian twit. Can your government negotiate on behalf of Holland in contradiction to EU policy? Can you prevent me entering Holland? Can you set your own state bank interest rates?The EU diplomatic Service has established it's own embassies in dozens of non European countries, did you not know that? Can your Parliament introduce laws that Brussels says no to? Can you refuse to implement EU laws that you disagree with?No, because with the exception of the currency it is all total bullshit! Fantasy! Figments of your imagination! Every European country still has its own Head of State, control over its borders, fiscal control, Diplomatic Service, control over its own law making processes, etc. etc.
By the look of it somewhat more than you.Do you actually know anything about the European Union?
We were discussing corruption if you remember?But conveniently not on war crimes charges!
They are immune etc, exactly, they can't be prosecuted, thus the law is impotent and thus they are above the law. Stop straw splitting.They are not placed above the law. They are immune from prosecution for as long as they are in function
He isn't! Blair came close to being impeached over WMDs.(exactly like like your PM)
Yes. But have you still not learned that what people say is BS?. That what they do is what matters?Digit wrote:About which they had no say, even Merkel said they wouldn't bail out the Greeks at first, then did a U turn, yes?The Germans may not like it (would you?) but they DO help, because that was the deal.
Yes, you imagined that because Hitler declared war on the US on 11 December 1941 and it was not before July 1943, 19 months later, that the US swung into major action in the European theatre. So there's very little connection between the two.That's strange, I thought it was due to the fact that Germany declared war on them, or did I imagine that?To the Yanks who only cut in in WWII when they realised they needed a market for their own economy to be able to grow?
Yes, it was a win-win situation, in contemporary lingo. But one we had no say in, nor sought. It was one we were forced into.And did your country benefit from their aid or not?The US' involvement in WWII wasn't philantropical, my friend. It was well-considered self-interest = pure egotism.
No thanks, I don't particularly like to go looking for trouble.try using a Dutch passport from before your EU membership.
No, that is the president – as in 'chairman' – of the council of government leaders. That is not my head of state (or it would be yours tooName your Head of State, like it or not it's that little Begian twit.
).Yes, but not in contradiction to EU treaties, because international treaties supercede national law. Exactly like the UK.Can your government negotiate on behalf of Holland in contradiction to EU policy?
What a silly question to ask! How would I know? I haven't a clue about your legal situation.Can you prevent me entering Holland?
No, not unless we are prepared to leave the €uro. And we don't want that because a €U interest rate is much more stable! Witness the current situation. The €uro saved our bacon in the current global financial crisis. Hail to the €uro!Can you set your own state bank interest rates?
Yes, so as to be able to negotiate on a par with other big parties, like the USA, Russia, China, and India. Which a single European country cannot. Even if that country is the United Kingdom.The EU diplomatic Service has established it's own embassies in dozens of non European countries, did you not know that?
With the possible exception of Germany all European countries, including the UK , are too insignificant by themselves to play any meaningful role on the world stage. Pure realism/practicality.
Yes, unless they are in contravention with EU treaties.Can your Parliament introduce laws that Brussels says no to?
Yes, if we would be prepared to leave the EU we could. And turn into a kind of Switzerland. But we don't want to leave the EU and go it alone.Can you refuse to implement EU laws that you disagree with?
Law IS straw splitting, my friend. You would know that if you have ever had a legal matter.They are immune etc, exactly, they can't be prosecuted, thus the law is impotent and thus they are above the law. Stop straw splitting.They are not placed above the law. They are immune from prosecution for as long as they are in function
But the war criminal got away with it (sofar anyway).Blair came close to being impeached over WMDs.
America was not even on a war footing when the Japs attacked, just how fast could your army train and equip millions of fighting men RS? At the start of the war the USAAF had 4000 pilots, at the end they had 40000. There were not enough airfields to recieve them on Airstrip One, the major programme didn't start here till '41.Yes, you imagined that because Hitler declared war on the US on 11 December 1941 and it was not before July 1943, 19 months later, that the US swung into major action in the European theatre. So there's very little connection between the two.
You listed Bush etc as war criminal, he pulled no trigger, so if you classify him as a WC then then so must you classify Blair and your own government. So before you bleat about other countries criminals I would suggest that you put your own house in order don't you think?But the war criminal got away with it (sofar anyway)
I will point out once more that we can, and do, prosecute such people whilst they are in office, they cannot hide behind their office.EXACTLY like UK ministers and PMs.
It didn't take 'm long to ramp up, sir. Within 5 months the US fought a major sea battle in the Pacific (the Battle of Coral Sea; which they lost BTW), and a whole series of great sea battles and land campaigns in the second half of 1942. Within 6 months the US waged full-scale war with large operations in Asia. In Europe that took 'm 19 months, and then it was still a limited involvement. Not nearly on the scale of those in the Asian war theatre. That only changed on June 6 1944. 31 months after Pearl Harbor!Digit wrote:America was not even on a war footing when the Japs attackedYes, you imagined that because Hitler declared war on the US on 11 December 1941 and it was not before July 1943, 19 months later, that the US swung into major action in the European theatre. So there's very little connection between the two.
There's nothing wrong, in that respect, with 'my house'. The Netherlands neither declared, nor took part in the war effort in Iraq. A battalion of Dutch Marines 'policed' (MP) the emptiest part of that sandbox for a while, well after the war. During the first part of the occupation.You listed Bush etc as war criminal, he pulled no trigger, so if you classify him as a WC then then so must you classify Blair and your own government. So before you bleat about other countries criminals I would suggest that you put your own house in order don't you think?
I know you do. Sueing – attaching blame and punishment in a quasi-civilised ritual dance – is the favourite Anglo-Saxon pastime. And we, Europeans, have together decided that that model is counterproductive for high state public offices/officers as in that system any governor/minister, who have jobs to do they were appointed/elected for, can easily be tied up in court more than fulltime, and thus he cannot properly execute his public office. Which puts the affairs of state at risk. So the EU adopted a system (we had it for almost 2 centuries already) that takes care of that: the highest public officials are immune from prosecution while in office, in the interest of the smooth running of the affairs of state.I will point out once more that we can, and do, prosecute such people whilst they are in office, they cannot hide behind their office.EXACTLY like UK ministers and PMs.
