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Then it was pointless to mention it.

I wouldn't expect us to toss a 30 year ally under a bus everytime a bunch of bozos start a riot.

Minimalist wrote:Then it was pointless to mention it.

I wouldn't expect us to toss a 30 year ally under a bus everytime a bunch of bozos start a riot.

Then you are responsible for the consequences.

No. It's their fucking country. They are responsible.

If we landed Marines to support Mubarak then we'd be responsible.


You're never happy. If we do try to tell people how to live you are as pissed off as when we don't.


Make up your mind.

There are several noticable errors there RS.
If the US did anything then you and Egypt's neighbours would be screaming blue murder about Yankee imperialism, infidels invading sacred muslim soil etc etc blah blah blah!
Also why the US? If Egypt requires assistance why not her neighbours? Why not the UN?
Further, how do you know that assistance has not been offered and declined?
Obama is not responsible for the deaths and violence there, it is those who engage in it! It is not normal in 'civilised society' to hang one man for another's crimes.
Your 20/20 hindsight appears to be somewhat blinkered!

Roy.

Minimalist wrote:No. It's their fucking country. They are responsible.

If we landed Marines to support Mubarak then we'd be responsible.

You're never happy. If we do try to tell people how to live you are as pissed off as when we don't.

Make up your mind.

If one can prevent bloodshed, but does not, then one is responsible. Whatever the motivation.

So RS, why is the Egyptian army, the one force on the ground currently capable of stopping the violence sitting on its hands?
By your definition they are guilty. What could the US do that the Egyptian army can not?

Roy.

Get the whole Arab world pissed at us for Yankee Imperialism.

Minimalist wrote:Get the whole Arab world pissed at us for Yankee Imperialism.

"Get"?
As if that would be a new development.
Dream on.
The whole Arab world is already majorly pissed off at you for Yankee Imperialism. Or did you miss 9/11?
Deal with it.

See, Obama had done a pretty good job of defusing that after the Bush/Cheney "Fuck-em-all" approach. His Cairo speech was generally well-received in the Arab world. Unfortunately, it is starting to look like too many Arabs took him seriously.

The concern is that these popular uprisings will be hijacked by hard core religious fanatics. Way too early to tell how this is going to work out.

Minimalist wrote:The concern is that these popular uprisings will be hijacked by hard core religious fanatics.

Yes, that is true. And a valid concern.
It is also true that that dark scenario has been used to justify autocratic exploitation of the people, and the police state. No less dark a scenario of course. But this one requiring, and succeeding in getting, by the billion, the hypocritical western (and in the sixties the communist) backing of terrible dictatorships. Scores of them. In Egypt's case in the last 60 years, and especially in the last 30 years.
That concern is at least as valid.

What western leaders have failed to recognize this time is the determination of the people of Egypt, and they have sofar seriously misjudged the outcome, and consequently backed (and are still backing) the wrong horse.

Way too early to tell how this is going to work out.

Absolutely. In the long run.
In the short term it is clear who needs, and deserves, western backing to minimize bloodshed.
Watch how Mubarak is wriggling and slithering, and instigating and provoking violence and chaos to avoid stepping down.
If the US were to suspend their annual billions of military aid, the life-blood of the Egyptian army, I think we might see the Egyptian military 'convince' Mubarak to go. In 5 minutes.
And it need never get to the front pages, either, because neither party would like to publicize they buckled under pressure. That's not cool for macho armies and dictators to be seen doing, you see.
So Mubarak could have chosen to publicly give any reason he liked for stepping down, except the real one (that his army told him to go, and why), and the army would let him, because they don't want it public either.

Last week, when all this began, and the Egyptian military top brass were in the US, would have been the perfect opportunity to get that message across to the Egyptian generals. And none of the nastiness and bloodshed of the past week-and-a-half would have needed to happen. That opportunity, as we all know, was missed by the Obama administration!

Not going to happen. The army is seen as the stabilizing force....possibly the only stabilizing force in Egypt. If anything, I'd expect that those contacts with the Egyptian army to be enhanced.

The army will eventually decide that it needs to divest itself of Mubarak.

In Egypt's case in the last 60 years, and especially in the last 30 years.

That should read about 3000 yrs shouldn't it?
No need to answer BTW!

Roy.

One thing that Egypt has never had a shortage of in its long history is "regime change" imposed by outsiders.