Trans-oceanic contacts

[Digit]

The assumed major killer has always been promulgated as being Smallpox but as I pointed out earlier the time taken to cross the Atlantic from mainland Europe is far greater than the time taken to infect the entire crew of the early vessels.
Thus the most likely mode of transmissions would have been via the early settlers, which raises the question of how they became infected as of para one above!
The normal method of transmission is person to person, but it is not the only path. People crossing to the new world, especially as settlers, would have taken much with them, which would have included clothing and blankets etc, which will carry the disease.

Roy.

[E.P. Grondine]

Now you sound like a christian with this eye-witness crap.

Ever serve on a jury? Defense lawyers routinely rip "eye witnesses" to shreds. Most people are about as observant as a loaf of bread.

Meanwhile, remember I read your book and found nothing but Indian folklore in it.

There's a large difference between viewing one event and living with a people.
Re-read my book and note the fragments of Thomas Alsop's lengthy account of the Andaste.
The "Adena" remains found in the area in today's Delaware are also footnoted there.

min, I note that you are unable to mentally separate my Bronze Age chronology built on contemporary documents and remains from my note on Old Testament synchronisms.

I know the "minimalist hypothesis" is essential to you, and I've asked you why you hold it so intensely.
I also note the rather stunned reaction here to my mention of my Palestinian and Moslem friends.

(ps - some people make $200 an hour for dealing with these kind of disccussions.)

[kbs2244]

This transfer of small pox debate led me to some quick research.
Wikipedia, of course.
It has a pretty good, and pretty long, entry on it.

As far as transportation time goes, the thing I noticed was the infection of bedding and clothing.
It seems it can live in them longer than in a human host.
(In fact it is rumored that it was used as a kind of bio-war weapon on one occasion by using infected blankets.)

It is a human only disease. It doesn’t effect any animals. But I can imagine them spreading it by moving from closet to closet or bed to bed.

Something we often forget is the time lapse between discovery and settlement in NA.
Desoto was in the 1400’s.
The Pilgrims in the 1600’s.

If Desoto traded some blankets and there was so undocumented “bodily fluids” contact he and his men gave the disease a 200 year head start on the settlers.
That is enough time for travelers and traders to spread it from coast to coast.

[Cognito]

(In fact it is rumored that it was used as a kind of bio-war weapon on one occasion by using infected blankets.)

That would be the siege of Fort Pitt in July-August 1763 (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_b ... #The_Siege)

Something we often forget is the time lapse between discovery and settlement in NA.
Desoto was in the 1400’s.
The Pilgrims in the 1600’s.

Hernando de Soto's expedition to the Southwest took place from 1539 to 1543. The resulting depopulation of the areas he visited is attributed by some to the herd of pigs that he brought along with him. Millions of Native Americans died off in the century before the Pilgrims landed (see: http://www.examiner.com/architecture-de ... -the-1500s).

[Minimalist]

min, I note that you are unable to mentally separate my Bronze Age chronology built on contemporary documents and remains from my note on Old Testament synchronisms.

E.P. if you wish to take the old testament at face value I can't stop you.

Archaeology has trashed it in the last 40 years ever since Israeli archaeologists gained access to the West Bank and Sinai.

Suit yourself but science has moved on. As Bill Dever noted in one of his books, no one is even looking for the Exodus and Conquest anymore. These things did not happen.

[E.P. Grondine]

E.P. if you wish to take the old testament at face value I can't stop you.

Archaeology has trashed it in the last 40 years ever since Israeli archaeologists gained access to the West Bank and Sinai.

Suit yourself but science has moved on. As Bill Dever noted in one of his books, no one is even looking for the Exodus and Conquest anymore. These things did not happen.

Thanks for your short statement.

min, I examined the evidence, came up with the Bronze Age chronology based on re-synching the standard Hittite chronology to a different previously proposed alternative astronomical event, due to the absolute tree ring dating for the eruption of Thera. It just so happens that the result parallels OT chronology.

Exodus is constantly "looked at" today in terms of the eruption of Thera.

If you and modern Israeli archaeologists want to deny the conquest, I can't stop them from trashing the archaeology in the process of denial.

Between working with impacts and Native American history and NAGPRA, I'm getting pretty good at working with "denial".

I could give page citations from my book for the Andaste and their remains, but there is little point as that would be futile.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Cog -

For a short history of this bio attack see:

http://www.tolatsga.org/shaw.html

[Minimalist]

As I said, E.P. you parading OT horseshit as reality is not going to get us anywhere.

[kbs2244]

Sorry for the 100 year goof on Desoto.
But, as we have evidence of, even 100 years is plenty of time to wipe out a continent.

When you read the early English explores stories of exploration you often see the phrase “100 year old Oaks.”

Well, “Duh”

That impressed them, coming from England where they had all been long ago cut down.
But that 100 years in NA was a great opportunity for oaks to grow.
There were no humans around to interfere with them.

What no one thought to ask was “What was going on 110 years ago?”

[Cognito]

Sorry for the 100 year goof on Desoto.

No problem, we all knew what you meant ... I just couldn't pass up the opportunity.

But, as we have evidence of, even 100 years is plenty of time to wipe out a continent. When you read the early English explorers stories of exploration you often see the phrase “100 year old Oaks.” Well, “Duh”

First, most all the oaks were felled in England for boats and houses (except Digit's property). Then, Ireland was deforested. The American forests must have been impressive, seemingly going on forever. You are correct that there was plenty of native controlled burning and much of the forests could have been young growth, but all that stopped when pandemics swept through the continents.

I tend to agree with Charles Mann that the Americas held a higher population than Europe when Columbus set foot on shore. Within a century that population was reduced by up to 95% in an unintended genocide (and by the way, I don't feel guilty about it since I didn't do it). There were pre-Columbian pandemics but it is difficult to determine whether they were home grown or were introduced - it's not a well-studied area of archaeology.

[kbs2244]

Well, the real question on Americas vs. Europe population is density.
People per square mile.

I don’t remember if he addressed that.

Europe is really a pretty small place.

[countrcultur]

As I said, E.P. you parading OT horseshit as reality is not going to get us anywhere.

this is kind of wierd. I apologize if I am out of line but it seemed like he said that his timeline coinciding with the old testement was coincidental and was based on other forms of dating. So why not refute those forms of dating. I only comment because I am interested in this topic.

[Minimalist]

Because I read his book.

[Cognito]

Well, the real question on Americas vs. Europe population is density. People per square mile. I don’t remember if he addressed that. Europe is really a pretty small place.

If by "he" you are referring to Charles Mann and 1491 I believe that Mann did a decent job of demonstrating that the pre-Columbian population of Mexico was about 45 million. That would be 45% of the entire Americas, a concentrated population compared to Europe's 70 million at the time.

By the way, pre-Columbian American cities were larger than their European counterparts - probabably because they were far cleaner due to water and sewage transport systems, etc, with a higher carrying capacity and better overall urban planning. When Cortes entered the Aztec capital, none of his men had ever seen anything like it. To be fair, the Aztecs also enjoyed the spectacle of human sacrifice ... and to be on the wrong end of that activity ruins your whole life.

[Digit]

A question Cogs. Were south American cities located on rivers as were the European ones?

Roy.