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Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:16 am
by Tiompan
Cognito wrote:
The paper you referenced disputes the Solutrean peopling of the Americas. I'm OK with that and believe that the Americas were peopled from Asia instead. Still, interesting artifacts would up in Virginia that indicate accidental tourism from the east.
" we present data which show that the corridor may not have existed, and that, if it did, its suitability as a migration route is highly questionable."
This would apply to all tourists .
Interesting artefacts do not a Solutrean in the Americas make .
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:22 pm
by kbs2244
I have to ask again, because I do not know where to start looking.
What were the conditions at the time in Europe/Scandinavia time of the Solutrean peopling of the Americas ?
I am thinking of weather, RELIGON changes, any kind of cultural change (invasion, maybe?)
Something basic to “who we are” that would make a guy leave home with all that is valuable to him and go over the horizon.
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:50 pm
by Minimalist
Tiompan wrote:Min introduced the religious analogy in relation to Clovis first "crowd ".
If it applies to them , then it certainly does to the Solutrean Hypothesis "crowd " .
Except for the hard evidence which religion avoids like the plague. Even the Clovis-Firsters have actual artifacts.
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:18 am
by Tiompan
Minimalist wrote:Tiompan wrote:Min introduced the religious analogy in relation to Clovis first "crowd ".
If it applies to them , then it certainly does to the Solutrean Hypothesis "crowd " .
Except for the hard evidence which religion avoids like the plague. Even the Clovis-Firsters have actual artifacts.
They not only have artefacts ,they also have human remains and their descendants , and a plausible explanation of where the remains/genes came from and how they migrated .
The belief that they were the earliest inhabitants that we are aware of to date can be falsified .
Falsification is not the stuff of religion .
On the other hand the Solutrean hypothesis , is a belief , with much of it shown to be at least unlikely ,and what is left ,
like the tooth fairy , cannot be falsified ,and like the tooth fairy it will be accepted by the agnostics when the evidence is forthcoming .
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:09 pm
by Cognito
They not only have artefacts ,they also have human remains and their descendants
Speaking in the plural? I am only aware of one Clovis burial recovered, that of an infant:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... americans/
Are there more?
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:47 am
by Tiompan
Cognito wrote:They not only have artefacts ,they also have human remains and their descendants
Speaking in the plural?
You omitted the rest of the sentence " and a plausible explanation of where the remains/genes came from and how they migrated . "
Remains is both singular and plural , genes and descendants are plural .
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:09 am
by Cognito
You omitted the rest of the sentence "
That is true ... and ... you never answered my question. Are you aware of any further Clovis era human remains other than one infant? Clovis Firsters' specious argument is,
"Where are the older skeletal remains?" whilst they can only demonstrate one skeletal burial in spite of all those lithic caches.
Clovis appears to be a rapidly spread technological advancement amongst an already existing population of Paleos. I am not disputing that Native American population genetics point to Asia (and even mtDNA X2 from the Altai region); however, Clovis technology did not originate in Asia. Otherwise, we would find similar artifacts in Siberia which we do not.
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:14 am
by Tiompan
Are you suggesting the question wasn't rhetorical ?
Clovis didn't need a skeleton and genetics to prove that there was a Clovis culture .
One Solutrean skeleton would falsify Clovis first , instantly . Do you know of any ?
Are there any genetics that might provide some succour to the Solutrean hypothesis ?
What is left of the Solutrean hypothesis that is not problematic ?
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:59 am
by Cognito
Clovis didn't need a skeleton and genetics to prove that there was a Clovis culture.
Nor do Paleos preceeding Clovis need a skeleton to conclude that Clovis First is dead (talk to Mike Waters et al).
One Solutrean skeleton would falsify Clovis first , instantly . Do you know of any ?
How about a pre-Clovis skull? Or, a brow ridge?
Are there any genetics that might provide some succour to the Solutrean hypothesis ?
Apparently you missed my point. A few sailors will not leave traces behind in a gene pool. I do not believe Solutreans left behind any genetic traces; however, that is not to say a few groups weren't kicking around the East Coast about 20kya, dropping lithics as they worked their way through the landscape.
What is left of the Solutrean hypothesis that is not problematic ?
Conversely, why do Clovis Firsters think nobody was in the Americas before Clovis? Various groups could have wandered through the landscape without leaving behind their genetics. Many incursions could have failed to take hold and multiply since there were only a few breeding couples, if any. That explanation goes a long way in explaining anomalous pre-Clovis finds.
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:45 am
by Tiompan
Cognito wrote:Clovis didn't need a skeleton and genetics to prove that there was a Clovis culture.
Nor do Paleos preceeding Clovis need a skeleton to conclude that Clovis First is dead (talk to Mike Waters et al).
You miss my point , as mentioned earlier , Clovis first is falsifiable and unless the finds are confirmed as Solutrean they do not provide succour for the SH .
One Solutrean skeleton would falsify Clovis first , instantly . Do you know of any ?
How about a pre-Clovis skull? Or, a brow ridge?
The question was about Solutrean remains , not pre Clovis .
Are there any genetics that might provide some succour to the Solutrean hypothesis ?
I do not believe Solutreans left behind any genetic traces; however, that is not to say a few groups weren't kicking around the East Coast about 20kya, dropping lithics as they worked their way through the landscape.
They may have done and we just haven't haven't found them , but we both know that there are no genetics , as yet , to provide succour for the hypothesis
What is left of the Solutrean hypothesis that is not problematic ?
Conversely, why do Clovis Firsters think nobody was in the Americas before Clovis? Various groups could have wandered through the landscape without leaving behind their genetics. Many incursions could have failed to take hold and multiply since there were only a few breeding couples, if any. That explanation goes a long way in explaining anomalous pre-Clovis finds.
Clovis and Clovis firsters have no impact on the S.H. . Conversely the SH if it was ever confirmed as true would impact on CF .
CF straw men , ifs and buts and qualifiers are not evidence of Solutreans .
What is left of the Solutrean hypothesis that is not problematic ?
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:39 pm
by circumspice
Thus spake Tiompan, our resident didactic, dogmatic dictator; our pedantic pedagogue; our self appointed forum Nazi. Er... Should I have said valiant protector of the status quo? He's here to read your posts & vett them for accuracy. He parses your posts for spelling, meaning & CONTENT... Tirelessly & thanklessly picking apart all posts in this forum ad infinitum, ad nauseum...
Accompanying theme music: Thus Spake Zarathustra ~ Richard Strauss.
His mission, like that of Nomad in the Star Trek episode The Changeling, is to "find and sterilize imperfection".
I ask you... Can there be any nobler mission?
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:08 pm
by Tiompan
It's like the loud mouth drunk at the bus station ,shouting at the punters and walls .
Accompanying theme music Wild man Fischer ,the Shaggs *
http://www.craveonline.co.uk/music/4685 ... sic-videos
Do you ever actually contribute anything to a discussion apart from shouting inanities ?
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:00 pm
by Minimalist
On the other hand the Solutrean hypothesis , is a belief , with much of it shown to be at least unlikely ,and what is left ,
Then it is a belief with artifacts which puts it far above religion which is based on pious blather and little more.
We also have evidence of Vikings in north eastern Canada 1,000 years ago, yet they also left little impact of their presence.
But they were here.
And, Clovis-Firsters are far too willing to ignore evidence that Clovis was Second... or Third.
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:45 am
by Tiompan
Minimalist wrote:On the other hand the Solutrean hypothesis , is a belief , with much of it shown to be at least unlikely ,and what is left ,
Then it is a belief with artifacts which puts it far above religion which is based on pious blather and little more.
The rest of the sentence was "and what is left ,like the tooth fairy , cannot be falsified ,and like the tooth fairy it will be accepted by the agnostics when the evidence is forthcoming ."
i.e. it's most famous putataive artefact , like some bits of the cross is hugely problematic .
We also have evidence of Vikings in north eastern Canada 1,000 years ago, yet they also left little impact of their presence. But they were here.
The evidence proves they were . Any suggested evidence for a Solutrean presence is hugely problematical .
And, Clovis-Firsters are far too willing to ignore evidence that Clovis was Second... or Third.
"why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
What some believers believe about their particular faith may provide succour to another faith, if they can see problems with the other ,but it doesn't impact on the veracity of their own .
Re: X mt DNA in North America
Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:07 pm
by Minimalist
If only they had artifacts to back them up.