The Quest for the Historical Junior

[Minimalist]

This is the equivalent of calling Big Papi "a god." Okay . . . Big Papi is a god, but I think you get the analogy.

Not if you pitch him up and in.

[john]

new word, at least for me.


"The Biblical archaeologists seem to have experienced pareidolia; seeing what they want to see in ambiguous patterns or images."

rang a bell for me.

always wondered about the fanatic emphasis, from at least the early medieval on, for posession of "genuwyne bits and pieces" of jesus, and his associates.

which they put in little church-shaped boxes, crafted and adorned according to the wealth of the posessor, in the fine tradition of conspicuous consumption.

priests, popes and royalty all. even a middle class phenomenon, as the middle class gained ground against church & state.

even then, the hucksters and the believers were desperate to produce physical evidence of something which did not exist except by hearsay.

and we don't seem to have changed at all, here in the early twentyfirst.



john

[Minimalist]

Finally, the mythicists do have a point: whatever happened it was not worth non-believers noting until late into the development of the subsequent religions. Some clown riding into a city--on two animals . . . have to satisfy the prophecies!!--with crowds of people would get noticed.

Believers (or at least Jews living at the time) do not seem to have noticed, either. Philo of Alexandria (d. c 50 BC) has a letter to Emperor Caligula complaining about the crimes of Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. As petty as some of these crimes seem to be, Philo never mentions that Pilate crucified someone "whom multitudes" claimed to be "the messiah."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book40.html

"Moreover, I have it in my power to relate one act of ambition on his part, though I suffered an infinite number of evils when he was alive; but nevertheless the truth is considered dear, and much to be honoured by you. Pilate was one of the emperor's lieutenants, having been appointed governor of Judaea. He, not more with the object of doing honour to Tiberius than with that of vexing the multitude, dedicated some gilt shields in the palace of Herod, in the holy city; which had no form nor any other forbidden thing represented on them except some necessary inscription, which mentioned these two facts, the name of the person who had placed them there, and the person in whose honour they were so placed there. (300) But when the multitude heard what had been done, and when the circumstance became notorious, then the people, putting forward the four sons of the king, who were in no respect inferior to the kings themselves, in fortune or in rank, and his other descendants, and those magistrates who were among them at the time, entreated him to alter and to rectify the innovation which he had committed in respect of the shields; and not to make any alteration in their national customs, which had hitherto been preserved without any interruption, without being in the least degree changed by any king of emperor. (301) "But when he steadfastly refused this petition (for he was a man of a very inflexible disposition, and very merciless as well as very obstinate), they cried out: 'Do not cause a sedition; do not make war upon us; do not destroy the peace which exists. The honour of the emperor is not identical with dishonour to the ancient laws; let it not be to you a pretence for heaping insult on our nation. Tiberius is not desirous that any of our laws or customs shall be destroyed. And if you yourself say that he is, show us either some command from him, or some letter, or something of the kind, that we, who have been sent to you as ambassadors, may cease to trouble you, and may address our supplications to your master.' (302) "But this last sentence exasperated him in the greatest possible degree, as he feared least they might in reality go on an embassy to the emperor, and might impeach him with respect to other particulars of his government, in respect of his corruption, and his acts of insolence, and his rapine, and his habit of insulting people, and his cruelty, and his continual murders of people untried and uncondemned, and his never ending, and gratuitous, and most grievous inhumanity.

Just seems that if Philo knew anything about Jesus he might have mentioned it in the list of Pilate's crimes, doesn't it? But Philo died 20 years or so before Mark was written so perhaps he knew nothing about this so-called "messiah?"

[Guest]

But there is a problem. J had hangers on. I think of the pathetic spectical of the "Doors" after another J died. J may not have said that he was divine but then again, perhaps he did not publicly deny it. Said hangers on co-opt existing, proven, mythic structures, inculcating J as appropriate. Who is going to argue? After all they knew the guy.

And for all we know, what his followers said about him may have had little to nothing to do with what he may have actually said or did. My personal experience with a "founding figure" in modern times come from the martial arts. As one critic put it, "doesn't the rock Sensei lifted get bigger each year? Doesn't the number of opponents he defeated get larger each year?" Those wishing to bathe in the "glow" of such a figure do embelish their experiences. Though it is known that one such figure died of kidney failure, soon after some fool started the story that he leaped out of his death bed and . . . like . . . performed perfect form and all of that!

So if you can do that in modern times within a few years, imagine what you can do in ancient times.

Paul--in his Galatians--tries to make his message "more reliable" than those who actually knew Junior "because" he received it from some revelation!

This is one of the reasons I jump up and down and remind that the mere fact a figure existed does not, in anyway, justify the myths about him.

Then as now (witness Arch) there are people ready to believe any wackey thing (witness also Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, that wierd chinese thing, and about a billion more, all with their own versions of Arch ready to "believe"). So, OK, they have a flegling business. A pretty good business model (co-opt what is locally popular, insert J, stir, repeat). The problem is that they really have no vision. They are, after all, camel jockies.

Indeed. Good examples. How old is Scientology, for example? Look at the mythology that has sprung up around that disaster!

Never trust a religion that would make you dump Nicole Kidman.

I would argue that "whatever" the Historical Junior said or did, it could not have greatly concerned the Romans. "t3h r34l" Romans and Pontius Pilate would have been more than happy to hunt them down. This is one of the strongest arguments for those in the mythicist camp that even the crucifixion was made up. Sorry for the believers, but one can--and many do--make a good case that he was not executed.

A little random schedule reinforcement, the odd miricle here or there always breathlessly reported by a believer and they are golden. But, still, they do not have the vision for Global Expansion. They need a hitter.

If you read some of Mack's stuff and Kloppenborg, you will see some of the evidence for the early development of the religions. Each is fullfilling "needs" and "wants" of the communities and potential followers.

Enter Paul. Handsome (in a jewish kinda way), urbane, sophisticated, a member of both the tribe AND the best club in town. A natural to take the enterprise to the next level.

Where am I going wrong?

Other than you do not praise My Humble Magnificence enough? Not at all. You recognize that religions develop on their own independent of founders. As the scholar I quoted states, "all you need for a founding figure is a name and a place." People can run with that.

They certainly did. You simply cannot reconcile the different theologies of the Synoptics and Jn with one another, for example.

--J.D.

[ed]

All praise to you etc. etc.


Anyway, we see exactly the same thing now, today.

Consider Kim il Jong of NK.

The country's state-run media have spread the "heroic deaths" of the people who risked their lives to protect "treasured" portraits of Kim Jong Il and his father and national founder Kim Il Sung when their houses were hit by severe floods last month.

A forestry worker died after saving Kims' portraits on July 16 when a landslide hit his home in Yangdok, South Pyongan Province, according to the North's official Korean Central News Agency, monitored by South Korea's Yonhap News Agency.

The worker barely passed the portraits to his wife immediately before he was buried by the landslide, it said.

KCNA also said a miner, who fled to the rooftop of his house, was swept away by floods after handing over Kim Jong Il's portrait to rescuers.

As you are no doubt aware, this guy has more attainments than any 50 ordinary humans. I suspect that a lot of NKs believe it.

This in 15 years.

I am reasonably certain that what I outlined is reasonable and probably pretty close to the truth about Jr.

[Guest]

Missed this whilst posting.

Finally, the mythicists do have a point: whatever happened it was not worth non-believers noting until late into the development of the subsequent religions. Some clown riding into a city--on two animals . . . have to satisfy the prophecies!!--with crowds of people would get noticed.

Believers (or at least Jews living at the time) do not seem to have noticed, either. Philo of Alexandria (d. c 50 BC) has a letter to Emperor Caligula complaining about the crimes of Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. As petty as some of these crimes seem to be, Philo never mentions that Pilate crucified someone "whom multitudes" claimed to be "the messiah."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book40.html

I did not know Philo lived in 50 BC. . . .

Anyways, exactly. All passion narratives are based on Mk, and Mk is unhistorical. There is no "let one of them go!" for Passover! As you note, Pilate's response to crowds was not washing his hands and hiding in a corner.

Just seems that if Philo knew anything about Jesus he might have mentioned it in the list of Pilate's crimes, doesn't it? But Philo died 20 years or so before Mark was written so perhaps he knew nothing about this so-called "messiah?"

An apologist will argue that news did not make it to Alexandria; however, I would agree that the movement(s) were not that public or interesting.

--J.D.

[Minimalist]

Typo. So sue me.

[Minimalist]

Say, Doc, what is your opinion of this piece from the other site?

Where Did They Get Their Ideas From?


Herod Antipas A Tale of Two Censuses :

Sulpicius Quirinius (Greek "Cyrenius" in Luke), Governor of Syria, conducted a taxation census of Judaea during 6-7 AD after Rome had deposed Archelaus and had annexed this minor province. The prefect appointed to Judaea was Coponius. Quirinius' census – based on property not a head count – did not extend to Galilee, a client kingdom which remained under the tetrarch Herod Antipas.

And no census would have required heavily pregnant maidens to make a 100 mile journey south!

Oops! Now, Acts 5.33 purports to tell the story of the disciples in the 30s AD. It calls as a "witness" an archetypal Pharisee priest called "Gamaliel" who advises the Sanhedrin to release the imprisoned disciples "just in case they were doing God's work."

As part of his dubious argument he cites the fate of two previous Messiahs – Judas the Galilean and Theudas. It just so happens Josephus (Ant. 20.5) also mentions both rebels – the Judas who raised a tax revolt under Coponius (about 6 AD) and "a certain magician Theudas" whose head was removed by the procurator Cuspius Fadus.

Unfortunately for the Biblical chronology Fadus was appointed after the death of Herod Agrippa in 44 AD – "Gamaliel" is recalling an event which hasn't yet happened!

Almost a century later – closer to his own time and no doubt influencing the author of Luke – a census was taken in Egypt. The "Kata Oikian" census of 104 AD required temporary city dwellers to return to their regular domiciles. This census did not extend beyond the borders of Egypt. Luke's story is a 'pick'n'mix' of a dimly remembered history, used as a literary device to give his hero the 'prophesied' birth in Bethlehem.

[Guest]

It is a good explanation with of the Lukan birth narative. Both he and Mt have similar intentions--to have a birth tied to history, to have a journey that fits needs.

Problem: they chose two different historical events, ten years apart, and then describe two different journeys! Fundis have been trying to harmonize them ever since. As above, census would not require this "travel to the place of your birth" nonsense! When those like archaeologist fail to read the texts they can actually keep both contradictions in their minds. Ask them "what happened," and they will tell you that "oh, they had to go to a census and flee Herod!!"

I witnessed in happy horror munching popcorn as a fundi declared she could "remove all contradictions." I had a collegue who spent a lot of time studying this period, and it was akin to a baby seal taking on a great white.

You go in cage.
Cage go in water.
Shark--Our shark--in the water.

Fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies!
Fairwell and adieu you ladies of Spain!
For we've orders to sail back to Boston!
And no longer may see you again!

--J. "If They Love You Going In They'll Love You Going Out!" D.

[Minimalist]

Fundis have been trying to harmonize them ever since.

Yeah....god is just one shitty story teller.

[Guest]

Well . . . you know . . . you have to have faith. . . .

--J.D.

[Minimalist]

Hey, Doc.

I still haven't found my copy of Jesus Puzzle but I did go online and dig up this version of Galatians. Sorry, but I don't see any apparent reference to an earthly jesus. In fact, this:

6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Sounds like a pretty standard pissing contest between rival groups. If they were Shi'a and Sunni I would expect chariot bombs planted in front of each other's HQ's!

What exactly are you hanging your hat on, here?

[Guest]

Oh thou of little faith. Hath thee not read . . . THE OPENING POST?!!! [!--Ed.]

"Let us review the catechism":

Επειτα μετα ετη τρια ανηλθον εις Ιεροσολυμα ιστορησαι Κηφαν και επεμεινα προς αυτον ημεπας δεκαπεντε ετερον δε των αποστολων ουκ ειδον ει μη Ιακωβον τον αδελφον του κυριου.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas [Peter--Ed.], and remained with him fifteen days, but I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.

Gal 1:18-19 (Aland, NT)

You may now begin your adulation. . . .

--J.D.

[Starflower]

You may now begin your adulation. . . .

So were they saying praise me or crazy My system must have garbled it

[Guest]

So were they saying praise me or crazy My system must have garbled it

Crazy?

--J.D.