Catal Huyuk City

[Guest]

So, gunny, according to your scheme, the now-submerged megalithic structures were built before 10000 B.C., but megalithic building didn't begin 'til circa 2500 B.C., so how do you explain your gap of 7,500 years, that's a long time you know?

[oldarchystudent]

Gunny - if I may suggest....

[Beagle]

Hey Gunny! I hadn't seen that you were here. I just got home.

I should post some of Daybrowns old stuff here from the beginning of the Noahs Flood thread. Maybe I will.

[Guest]

Beagle, if you'd pay attention, you'd know that we're not talking about Noah's Flood, read the Bible to see the nature of that Flood, we're talking about the limited sea level rise with the close of the Ice Age, tune in.

[Beagle]

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by Ryan & Pitman has received a lot of deserved criticism. I wont quibble with the precise dating and the C-14 recalibration controversy. But to begin with, we have the speculation by Gimbutas on the origin of the Aryans, which she suggests was just south of the Urals. Mallory, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" dont buy it, noting all the words related to freshwater and fishing in Proto-Indo-European. But he cant offer a likely alternative either. My heart goes out to him because he wrote before "Noah's Flood" came out, and never considered looking for the home of the Aryans on the bottom of the Black Sea.

He rejected notions of the Black Sea region because it is, well.. a *sea*, this is a salt water environment, and none of the PIE words refer to the marine ecosystem, even tho lots refer to swamps, lakes, rivers, boats, fishing... But then Ryan & Pitman suggest, that in the era in question, it was the Euxine *lake*. And of course, as Mallory notes, there is the diaspora. Something put a lot of people with new technologies on the move.

In keeping as well with the Chalcolithic Golden Age of Peace, it turns out that the orginal Aryans were not aggressive invading armies, but a mercantile or nomadic culture of assimilators bringing new technologies into other regions. The weaponry we associate with the Aryans dont really show up until the bronze age. A thousand years or more after "Noah's flood".

From what Ryan, Pitman, Gimbutas, & Mallory have to say, I am confused as to why Ballard and his 'Titanic' crew went to the Turkish coast to look for some kind of submerged Aryan settlement off Sinop. Clearly, all the action in that era would have been along the Danube as it empties into the lake. Maybe they wanted to keep the controversy going.

From what Ryan & Pitman say, it seems that early agrarians were driven out of their Anatolian homes in what looks to me like a 'younger dryas' period of chronic drought around 6200 BCE. And if the flood occurred @5600 BCE, then they were only there for 500-600 years, and would not have left the kind of large tel mounds we see further up the Danube.

Careful sonar mapping of the former Danube channel to the Euxine basin would either show some albeit low mounds, or... not. And if not, then we can all move on to look for another Aryan homeland.

But there is other evidence to support Ryan & Pitman. The earliest copy we have of the Great flood is Gilgamesh, written in Mitanni. But- the Mitanni were a semi nomadic upland horse culture of what is now Northern Iraq. What are *they* doing with a great flood myth unless it was something that their own ancestors witnessed before arriving in Iraq. Which we all agree was from someplace up north. They were *not* lowland Semites. Moreover, its been noted that the usage and characteristics of the hand suggest that this copy of Gilgamesh was written by a *woman*. Which fits with the Aryan matriarchy idea.

In Gilgamesh, he goes back out onto the water to then dive down to retreive some precious object. This fits with the Euxine flood, which was, in many areas, while it covered lots of land, not so deeply. Noted in scripture as well, is the report of springs that gushed forth like artesian wells. This would not be caused by rain, which covers all the land with the same level of hydralic pressure, but would be from the Bosphorus opening up and rapidly backing up the outflow of springs around the lake.

Recently, there have been a number of tels in Iran which curiously were founded not that long after the stipulated Great Flood. But most of the refugees would simply have made rafts of their houses and moved west, and on up the Danube/Dneipr river system. This would have brought new ideas into the region as well, and resulted in a cultural flowering. Which is exactly what we see. But what we dont see, is consistent with matriarchy, witches running things... no sign of forced invasion. Rather, mercantile assimilation.

Part of the reason is that the male leaders need to control the bodies of women to ensure their line. But women dont have the problem. They always know who the mother is. Moreover, in small communities, therefore small gene pools, diversity is critical. DNA shows that Native Europeans evolved in villages of 150-300. Thus, there are only a few dozen possible mates. Nobody is looking for 'Mr. Wright'. And to maximize genetic diversity, women would have chosen a different sperm donor for every child. So- unlike kings, the witches were not trying to control the sexual activity of men. That tends to reduce the rate of violence.

Since Gimbutas, archaeologists have gone back into the museums of east Europe and examined the pollens and plant residues with modern forensic equipment. They are reconstructing ancient witch recipes. And looking at the active ingredients in herbs. The Great Flood would have resulted in lots of herbs and herbal knowledge being widely distributed. So, it turns out that there's a *reason* that "Bachelor Button" is so named, and why "Blessed Thistle" is blessed.

Some plants have evolved to cause infertility and abortions in herbivores to prevent any from evolving that like to eat them. The diaspora spread the witch potions all over those ecosystems these plants preferred. Which was not the arid Fertile Crescent, and thereby had a cumulative effect on the way that cultures evolved in different ecosystems.

So- at the same time that the Great Flood moved people up the Danube, the salt mines at Hallstaat and Salzburg began shipping salt down to the new fishing industries and along the coast of the now Black Sea to towns like Varna.

In the "Substance of Civilization" by Sass and other places, we see where the agrian revolution meant that a given piece of fertile land could support *500* times the number of people as had been hunters. So, as these new communities formed, it would have been suicide for aggressive hunting warriors to attack them. Posses with dogs would easily be able to track the attackers down, and with sacks of grain, the trackers could keep going for as long as it took.

There seems to be a simlar era of peace lasting for 1000 years at Carcal Peru, again for the same reason, adequate food and way too many people for aggressive hunting tribes to deal with.

Like Caral, the Great Flood resulted in new fishing technologies, but because of the rate of the rise of water, moving many more people. But not so fast that the refugees were without resources. They still would have had their canoes. Where Carcal had cotton nets, the Cucuteni had hemp. And when they made sails of cannibis, we ended up with 'canvas'. Dan-u was the river goddess, from which we get 'Danube'. The clues are all over the language dating back to this era. There must have been some great coalescing event that started it all, and "Noah's Flood" is the best candidate I know of.

Gunny - here's the people & book you were talking about. Posted by Daybrown in the "Noahs Flood" topic.

[Guest]

Beagle, is that a global flood?

[DougWeller]

Yes gunny, the structures now-submerged on the shallow seafloor of the Black Sea bear much more investigation, little doubt that they were as sophisticated as Catal Huyuk, so how could these, and the other submerged ancient city-states, off Spain, Malta, Morocco, Egypt, Lebanon, India, and Pacific islands, be from the end of the Ice Age?

Exactly what structures are these in the Black Sea? Evidence?

There was almost certainly no Black Sea Flood, as I have pointed out before. Paul H has posted this at Ma'at.

n the "In Press" section of "Quaternary International", I found
an article, which is in press, and currently available only as a
preprint in PDF format. The article is:

Yanko-Hombacha, V., A. S. Gilbertb, and P. Dolukhanovc, in
press, Controversy over the great flood hypotheses in the Black
Sea in geological, paleontological, and archaeological evidence.
Quaternary International. doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2006.08.004

They did an extensive review of two different scenarios, which
have been proposed for Noah's Flood having occurred in the
Black Sea. The scenarios, which they reviewed were (1) an
Early Holocene event caused by catastrophic Mediterranean
inflow at either 7,200 or 8,400 BP and "(2) a Late Pleistocene
event brought on by Caspian influx between 16,000 and 13,000
BP". The 7,200 BP event was originally proposed by Ryan et al.
(1997), a paper published in "Marine Geology". This date was
later revised to 8,400 BP by Ryan et al. (2003), a paper
published in "Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Science".
The 13,000 to 16,000 BP event was proposed by Tchepalyga
(2003) in a Geological Society of America talk.

After a very, very detailed review of both geological and
archaeological data and research related to both hypotheses,
they concluded:

1. "These data indicate no major drawdown of the Black Sea
after the Younger Dryas, and they do not provide evidence
for any catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea in the Early
Holocene."

2. The Late Pleistocene, 13,000 - 16,000 BP innudation of the
Black Sea "was intense and substantial whereas the Early
Holocene sea-level rise was not."

and 3. archaeological and paleoenvironmental evidence revealed
no recognizable changes in population dynamics between 14,000
and 6,000 BP that could be linked to a catastrophic flood.

Undoubtedly, once published, there will be some comments
and replies to this article that will appear later in
"Quaternary International".

An online abstract related to the above inpress paper is "Late
Quaternary history of the Black Sea: an overview with respect
to the Flood Hypotheses" by V. Yanko-Hombach, A. S.
Gilbert, and P. Dolukanov (Geophysical Research Abstracts,
Vol. 8, 00359) at http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/00 ... b1a075997


There is a 2003 Geological Society of America abstract by V.
Yanko-Hombach at http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/inqu/finalpro ... _54332.htm

and several related
abstracts at http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalp ... n_9644.htm

Also, there is a book being published on this controversy.
It is the "The Black Sea Flood Question: Changes in Coastline,
Climate and Human Settlement Edited by V. Yanko-Hombach,
A. S. Gilbert, N. Panin and P. M. Dolukhanov. To be
published by Springer-Verlag, http://www.nhbs.com/title.php?tefno=145256
References Cited:

Tchepalyga, A., 2003. Late glacial Great Flood in the Black
Sea and Caspian Sea. Geological Society of America Abstracts
with Program. vol. 35, no. 6, p. 460, http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalp ... _63243.htm

Ryan, W. B. F., W. C. Pitman III, C. O. Major, K. Shimkus, V.
Moskalenko, G. A. Jones, G. N. P. Dimitrov, M. Saknc, and
H. Yuce, 1997, An abrupt drowning of the Black Sea shelf.
Marine Geology. vol. 138, pp. 119-126.

Ryan, W. B. F., C. O. Major, G. Lericolais, and S. L.
Goldstein, 2003, Catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea.
Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Science. vol. 31,
pp. 525-554.

Note: I am just reporting what is said in the above paper.
The opinions of the authors in the above papers **may or
may not** reflect my opinions on ths subject. Therefore,
if you have any complaints, please, direct them to the
authors of the above article, not me.

Yours,

Paul H.

And Catal Huyuk was not a city, but a very large town, according to the archaeologists working on it.

Doug

[Guest]

No Black Sea Flood huh, lot's o' luck selling that.

And there are submerged megalithic ruins off Snake Island in the Black Sea at the mouth of the Danube.

[oldarchystudent]

Doug / Paul.

Great post!

[marduk]

G.V. i see what you do now
if something fits your hypothesis then you add it to your body of laughable work
if it doesn't you claim that the proposersof a theory don't know what they are talking about because it isn'tmentioned in an outdated Hebrew story book
the black sea flood theory was disproved some time ago
Ballard flunked
as does anybody who still claims it is valid because even Ballard now knows better
the only other person who ever claimed the black sea flood was real on this boarD was Archaeologist
and at least he provided references
i.e.he didn't just whine "i want to believe bacause i lack faith i want to believe because i have doubts" and expect the non believers to respect him for it
because we didn't

[Guest]

There are megalithic ruins on the seafloor off Snake Island at the mouth of the Danube in the Black Sea, how'd that happen?

The uniformitarian/darwinian model is laughable, no explanatory power, so it's logical that there's got to be another model out there with much more explanatory power, as uniformitarian/darwinism just doesn't fill the bill.

[DougWeller]

No Black Sea Flood huh, lot's o' luck selling that.

And there are submerged megalithic ruins off Snake Island in the Black Sea at the mouth of the Danube.

Divers have found walls and 1st millenium BC pottery, etc off Snake Island. And a temple of Apollo is on the island.

[marduk]

There are megalithic ruins on the seafloor off Snake Island at the mouth of the Danube in the Black Sea, how'd that happen

theyre not megalithic
theyre greek
doh
both Strabo and Pliny (Secundus) and Ptolemy mention them before they were submerged by geological action during the common era
funny how you missed that detail Jim
did you research that or borrow it from a pseudo historian like most of the rest of your thesis

[Guest]

And when do you think those megalithic walls were engulfed by the sea?

[marduk]

well obviously sometime after Ptolemy, Strabo and Pliny wrote about them
unless youre suggesting they had time travel as well

thats just common sense
oops i forgot
you don't know what that is
its surgically removed by God in all fundies isn't it