Ancient Sea Travel

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:04 pm

If I were surfing the next to the last thing I would want to see is a seal...

The last thing, of course, would be the Great White which was hunting it!

Sam Salmon · Post by **Sam Salmon** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:24 pm

We power boaters/sportfishermen here in BC regularly shoot Seals/Sea Lions ditto the Commercial fleet.Protected Marine Mammals or not they need to be taught to fear humans and I do my share to see that they do.

Back OT-while Seals/Sea Lions may/may not have been easy prey for the first humans Pinnipeds are poor eating.
The fur would make excellent clothing but fish are a tasty meal and easy for even a child to catch/ditto Bivalves.

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:27 am

Min, finding a spot to play where there are no Seals around here would be a challenge.

Sam, While Seal meat may not be very appealing to us, the blubber is very high in protein, and the skins are not only warm, but waterproof

but I agree there would be easier picking, like Abalone at low tide. I bet they were very plentiful in past times. Unfortunately, our local Abalone have been hit with withering foot disease, and we can't even take Abs south of San Francisco.

I do not disagree with your feeling about marine mammals. Monterrey Bay is a marine mammal sanctuary, and they are definitely out of hand here. They haul up on boats and the boat owners are not even allowed to chase them off! They have to wait for them to leave! Hard to have a party with a 1,000 bull seal ion on the fantail!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:10 pm

http://newswire.ascribe.org/cgi-bin/beh ... 6&public=0

An ancient canoe -- more than likely the oldest canoe ever uncovered in Mesoamerica -- was discovered this summer in a cliff-top cave in Belize by an excavation team being led by Wichita State University archaeologist Keith Prufer.

Prufer estimates that the canoe very likely dates to 200 to 800 AD, based on previous findings in the area. Carbon testing is currently being wrapped up to confirm that the canoe is indeed the oldest found in Mesoamerica, the geographical region from around central Mexico extending down through Belize, Honduras, Guatemala and part of Costa Rica.

From yesterdays Archaeologica news. The oldest meso-american canoe, but the article tells us nothing about how big it is, or what it is made of,etc.
Obviously not for the open sea (I think), but these people thought highly enough of their canoes to be buried with them.

Maybe a future article will provide us with more info.

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:24 pm

Min, finding a spot to play where there are no Seals around here would be a challenge.

The seals can play all they want.

It's me who will not be there!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:26 am

http://physorg.com/news79808634.html

This url should have been posted here.

The Bering land bridge disappeared earlier than thought. Migration of humans by sea appears more likely.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:09 am

http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/mariners/ ... iner1.html

Maritime colonisation by Homo erectus commenced in Indonesia well over 800,000 years ago. It led to the peopling of much of the region by early hominids, and by possibly 60,000 years ago to the occupation of Greater Australia through archaic Homo sapiens. All of this maritime expansion involved the use of seaworthy watercraft. One implication of these first maritime expeditions is that the hominids concerned are suggested to have had language, and a much more sophisticated technology and culture than hitherto thought. The technological and cognitive background of these achievements is being examined through an intensive, long-term replication study

This article was originally posted here in the Aborigine topic, started by Stan. That thread really had a lot of great stuff in it.

It's appropriate here and will be controversial. If this experiment and resulting paper had been conducted by anyone without Bednariks' credentials, it would be ridiculed as pseudoscience.

The article suggests that H. Erectus had seafaring capabilities, and as a result probably could communicate by way of speech.

This one is an eye opener, and I hope that we get some comments from our two experienced mariners here.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:47 am

what I'd like to know is just how these supposed vessels operated in the indonesia area before the sunda shelf had sunk
did they have wings ?

If this experiment and resulting paper had been conducted by anyone without Dr. Badnariks' credentials

so enlighten us all Beagle
what are his qualifications ?

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:22 pm

The idea that homo erectus was a seafarer is new to me. That is revolutionary. An interesting theory, but I do not see it as proof.

BUT we can be very certain that homo Sapein was doing major sea crossings about 60,000 years ago because the Australian Aborigines date back that far, and there is no other way to get there.

Discounting contentental drift, the distance from Africa to Australia is a very, very major sea crossing. Exponentially more difficult and dangerous than following the coast.

Let us just guess they came as a group. My guess would be an outrigger type craft. They have been know to cross vast distances in the Pacific.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:25 pm

marduk wrote:what I'd like to know is just how these supposed vessels operated in the indonesia area before the sunda shelf had sunk
did they have wings ?

If this experiment and resulting paper had been conducted by anyone without Dr. Badnariks' credentials
so enlighten us all Beagle
what are his qualifications ?

Excuse the typo - try Bednarik instead. If you had just read the article you wouldn't need to ask the question. His email address is in the article. Why don't you contact him and ask him the rest of your question - then report back.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:31 pm

Barracuda wrote:The idea that homo erectus was a seafarer is new to me. That is revolutionary. An interesting theory, but I do not see it as proof.

BUT we can be very certain that homo Sapein was doing major sea crossings about 60,000 years ago because the Australian Aborigines date back that far, and there is no other way to get there.

Discounting contentental drift, the distance from Africa to Australia is a very, very major sea crossing. Exponentially more difficult and dangerous than following the coast.

Let us just guess they came as a group. My guess would be an outrigger type craft. They have been know to cross vast distances in the Pacific.

Yes, it's controversial all right. While most scientists now concede that Australia was occupied nearly 60,000 yrs. ago, very few will offer an explanation as to how they got there.

Also, there is accumulating evidence of man in the Americas 40,000ya. We'll have to wait on those findings however. I appreciate your thoughts on it Barracuda.

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:37 pm

Let us just guess they came as a group. My guess would be an outrigger type craft.

But how did they know it was there? That's the piece of the puzzle that always bothered me.

No one in his right mind would load up an entire clan on a boat and set off blindly onto the ocean.

Unless, 1- Conditions where they were had become interminable or

2- They were being chased.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:04 pm

it would be ridiculed as pseudoscience.

Itis psuedoscience
in this case the area that Mr (i.e. not Dr as hes a journo) Badnarik is claiming that Homo erectus could only have crossed by boat was actually entirely above sea level at the time the crossing was made.
the big clue is where he says in the article

formerly known as the Lesser Sunda Islands

these are on the edge of what is known as the sunda shelf
the edge is known by the name the "wallace line" after Alfred Wallace a biologist who noticed that the fauna (i.e. animals) on the islands still above water were all identical.
something which would not be the case if the islands had been seperated for very long
the sunda shelf was inundated relatively rapidly between 14,000 and 11,000 years ago
up until that point you didn't need a boat
you may remember the sunda shelf is quite famous in pseudscience already so I'm quite surprised that Dr Badnarik hasn't heard of it
previously ithas been claimed to be the lost continent of Atlantis, Lemuria and Mu and most recently in a quite famous pseudoscientific gaffe was claimed to be the home of the pyramid builders by Dr Robert Schoch

once again beagle your relative lack of knowledge on this subject has let you down and made you seem quite foolish, I'm sure you have the club literally quaking in its boots
ROFLMAO

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:29 pm

I totally agree, Min, the only way anyone would intentionally set out on a journey into the unknown like that would be if the alternative were certain death.

But island warfare was common, with the losers facing total genocide with no place to run except to sea.

OR, intreprid individuals, or small groups, made the journey and returned, telling the folks back home stories of how much better things are on the next island.

Maybe this happened in the regular process of hunting/fishing trips, or because they were blown out to sea in storms.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:20 pm

the edge is known by the name the "wallace line" after Alfred Wallace a biologist who noticed that the fauna (i.e. animals) on the islands still above water were all identical.

Ok Marduk - I'll go over this with you. The article was posted (again) for consideration. I was hoping for comments from our two mariners (Thanks you Barracuda, and I'm sure Sam will share his thoughts as well.)

First, you need to post some evidence. Then, carefully reread whatever you cited concerning the Wallace line. See Stans' post about it in the Aborigine thread - page 4 I think.

I didn't post it to defend it but I don't mind posting some evidence, but as a gentleman, I'll give you a chance to edit that last post.