Syro-Palestinian Archaeology

rich · Post by **rich** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:11 pm

Aaah - d' gin! Praised be da wised man!

And rum (why da rum)

And brandy.

And koniac.

And vodka.

And - aah just so many I am believink in sooo many spirits!!!

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:40 pm

Michelle, can we add this smilie in honor of the "spirits?"

Post by **Minimalist** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:36 am

A new archaeological park announced by the Israel Antiquities Authority.

http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_I ... ule_id=#as

The park was prepared for the public in cooperation with the Israel Antiquities Authority, which excavated and exposed two extremely important archaeological sites there that date to the time of the Second Temple period – Horvat Etri and Horvat Burgin. These sites were major and dynamic Jewish settlements at this time when the entire Judean Shephelah was in fact the center of Jewish settlement in the Second Temple period – a kind of modern day “Metropolitan Tel Aviv”.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:16 pm

Hi all, I'm new to the site and after reading through this thread I see that you don't have a proper minimalist (apologies to Minimalist but your nick is slightly misleading).

Frankly as I look at the archaeological evidence from the region I see no reson to ascribe any biblical tradition to Judah until after the 'return' which, I believe, was a Persian occupation. The bible is entirely explainable as a propaganda piece that started with the Persians (Cyrus is the first historical figure mentioned in the bible as messiah) and was similarly used and modified by the Greeks.

My question is simply this: Outside of the bible what evidence is there that;

a.) pre-exilic Judah was monotheistic

b.) That Judah had a temple tradition.

Oh and please let's keep it down, I suspect rich will have a hangover.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:26 pm

Hi all, I'm new to the site and after reading through this thread I see that you don't have a proper minimalist (apologies to Minimalist but your nick is slightly misleading).

Before this impending conversation begins, I would like to say Hello and Welcome to the forum seeker.

rich · Post by **rich** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:29 pm

Welcome, seeker. I'm workin' on the hangover - should have it set by morning!

rich · Post by **rich** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:00 pm

BTW - I don't think even the bible supports pre-exilic monotheism. Some do but - eh. Don't even think it supports it afterwards. But that's another story - lol.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:05 pm

(apologies to Minimalist but your nick is slightly misleading).

Agreed, seeker.....a long story but essentially I chose it to annoy the hell out of a fundie who was hanging around and annoying the living shit out of everybody.

To him...anyone who did not think the OT was the literal word of god (including contradictions and errors) was a "Minimalist" so I didn't have to be too precise. Now, of course, the thing has grown of its own accord!

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:20 pm

Oh, and, btw, the answers to your questions are:

A: none

b: not much

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2005_0 ... chive.html

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:25 pm

Welcome Seeker! It's good to see you on here.

In answer to your questions, I think pretty well the whole lot of them were Canaanite polytheists with Sumerian and Babylonian mythology in their blood.

You know what I think about the temple - that the story of Exodus, which holds many metaphors, not to mention metaphors within metaphors - is of itself an over-arching metaphor for what drove them from pastoralism to agriculture, ie. the need by the priests to establish a permanent temple in order to impose monotheism.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:10 am

This is an interesting point from Min's link (my bolding):

As I said, it is widely, but not universally accepted that the Deuteronomistic History (Dtr) was written, perhaps in two editions, during the reign of Josiah or within a few decades of the destruction of Jerusalem. This is the view I accept.

A minority viewpoint, but an important one, thinks that it was written considerably later, in the late Persian Period (c 500-300 BCE) or even in the Hellenistic Period in the third or second centuries BCE. I find the last view very hard to defend.

The Hebrew of the Dtr looks to me to be much more like that of the pre-exilic inscriptions than that of Hellenistic Hebrew. (I think there is a doctoral dissertation to be written on this.) The Dtr is also entirely lacking in the sort of anachronisms we would expect from a Hellenistic text. It contains no Persian words, no Greek words, and no mention of persons or events later than the early part of the exile.

Discuss!

rich · Post by **rich** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:05 am

So does that do away with Ahura Mazda and the 7 sparkies?

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:15 am

Thx all for the kind greetings.

rich - I think Ahura Mazda and the seven sparkles (love that) are very much in play. I very strongly think that Judaism started out as Mazdayasna and that origen was obfuscated by the Greeks who basically wanted to discredit all things Persian.

Ish - I would suggest that Deuteronomy is actually the first bit of Jewish scripture and that its original form is the suzerain-vassal treaty by Cyrus that created the Abarnahara satrap. Since that event probably occured in the late 6th century it would be pre-hellenistic.

rich · Post by **rich** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:46 am

Soo - what of the Sefer Yetsirah - would that also be influenced by the greeks then? Or a deeper look into Zoroastrianism?

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:00 am

That's an interesting theory, Seeker. Care to expand on it?

For instance, are you one of those who believe that the temple at Jerusalem was solely set up by Cyrus to serve the Abarnahara satrap, that the Jews were actually a sect of Zoroastrianised priests and were never a nation until the time of the Maccabees?