Neanderthal DNA

[Digit]

Watch it Cog! I see a stake and load of cordwood being prepared!

[Beagle]

What happened?

Some sources say that HSS retreated, but most agree with with fossil records that HN and HS lived in close proximity for nearly 20,000 years in the Levant.

After that it appears that HS vanished in that area. Notably, the Levant has more examples of interbreeding than any other area. There is Skhul cave and Shanidar among others with what Trinkaus believes to be obvious examples of hybrids.

[Minimalist]

If there is anything to Out of Africa then evolution did not choose it. The ice never reached that far south.

If HSS entered Europe at 40,000 BC then the ice age was well underway when they got there. Perhaps the big brain merely allowed them to adapt.
It's one of the big problems that I have with the Toba bottleneck theory.
If any species was adaptable it was HSS. Animals which look for one type of vegetation or prey might have been screwed...should have been screwed, really. Humans, though, can and do eat whatever they can find.

So Min, the other unexplainable event is modern humans being in Israel about 100,000bp, then disappearing. Neanderthals reoccupy Israel until OOA about 60,000bp. If modern humans were so competitive, etc. why did they retreat from Israel only to be replaced by Neanderthals? What happened?

That's a damn good question. Just speculation, here. Maybe Neanderthals weren't all that inferior? Perhaps in the first contest between the two, the Neaderthals won out? There does not seem to be any logical reason that one can point to for the failure of HNS to survive.

[Cognito]

That's a damn good question. Just speculation, here. Maybe Neanderthals weren't all that inferior? Perhaps in the first contest between the two, the Neaderthals won out? There does not seem to be any logical reason that one can point to for the failure of HNS to survive.

The logical answer is this: Neanderthals won the first interaction battle. So much for smart versus dumb, eh?

[Minimalist]

The only ones calling them dumb are the winners.



That happens a lot in history.

[Cognito]

The only ones calling them dumb are the winners. That happens a lot in history.

Exactly.

[Beagle]

As I said, there is no evidence of conflict in the Levant, in the whole 20,000 yrs. they lived in proximity. Quite the opposite actually.

[Digit]

Man the killer ape gets another make over? Assuming you bought that scenario of course?

[Beagle]

In an earlier post (maybe missed), I referred to the fossil record in Shanidar cave and others, which sports the largest number of suspected hybrid individuals. This according to Trinkaus.

[Forum Monk]

Maybe I'm mistaken but wasn't there a fossil record of hybrids in the Shanidar cave documented by Trinkaus?




(got a link Beag?)

[ravenwing5910]

Maybe I'm mistaken but wasn't there a fossil record of hybrids in the Shanidar cave documented by Trinkaus?




(got a link Beag?)

Monk, that sounds familiar, I think I read something along those lines in one of my books. I will see if I can find the article.

and looking forward to what you've got Beag.

[Beagle]

Yep, there is a link and I've posted it somewhere in this forum. I'll find it though, probably this evening.

[Beagle]

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology ... qafzeh.htm

In 1933 the scientist Neuville discovered the remains of two ancient modern type human beings, this was just the beginning. By 1977 the remains were found of 11 different humans. The most intriguing find was in the Skhul cave, a modern looking skull (Skhul 9) with Neanderthal features (in the prognathism and brow ridges)

Both adult and infant bones were found in the Qafzeh and Skhul caves dating back to 100,000 years old. With the Human remains there were Mousterian tools (side scrapers and points) thought only to be the tools of the Neanderthal man. Again highlighting the interaction between Neanderthal man and modern humans

This is from a quick perusal of articles. It's not the one I've posted before but for this current discussion, the article shows that, if anything, they made love not war.

I hate to post a long PDF file so I'll keep looking. The Levant is riddled with caves that have been occupied at this time.

[Digit]

The other evening I cauht a few minutes of a programme where this particular chap was saying that hybrids between HSS and HSN were impossible, sex, he claimed was probably frequent but offspring not so.
Where an Earth he got that idea from astounds me.
In primative societies children are essential and sterile matings are normally terminated or supplemented with another partner. To suggest that either HSS or HSN would not soon be aware that such couplings were non productive is ridiculous!

[Cognito]

The other evening I cauht a few minutes of a programme where this particular chap was saying that hybrids between HSS and HSN were impossible

Based on our current lack of knowledge in the area and emerging genetic studies I wouldn't be stating that hybrids are impossible. The only question I would be asking is whether the hybrids themselves were sterile or not. Trinkaus appears to have found more than one hybrid and believes he has found evidence of hybrid offspring. Impossible?

Unfortunately, acquiring a university degree or two does not prevent some "experts" from expressing their innate stupidity. It should also not prevent them from displaying the following sign with pride: