dr. schoch and his contribution to archaeology

[DougWeller]

Oh, so you deny that there were mass-migrations of people-groups circa 1500 B.C.?

Let's do it the other way round. How about some specific claims?

[DougWeller]

Harte, do you think the Ipuwer Papyrus describes a devastation of the land, by drought, famine, pestilence, you name it, so did it not dry out drastically there then, to end ancient Egypt's most sophisticated and majestic period at around 1500 B.C.?

Well, this one is easy, as it is thought to date somewhere between 1850 and 1600 BC, not 1500 BC. And you may want to take it literally but the more common interpretation, at least now, is that it is about the balance/conflict between chaos and order, evil and good.

[Guest]

Then all historical documents should be allegorized as "battles between chaos and order, between good and evil," what an interesting concept.

[DougWeller]

Then all historical documents should be allegorized as "battles between chaos and order, between good and evil," what an interesting concept.

I guess that's a good example of your logic, which shows why it is a waste of time having a discussion with you.

You are begging the question. And showing that you don't know much about the document in question.

[Guest]

And what question is that?

[Guest]

The Sahara continues to spread as of today. Seems largely irrelevant to Egypt at the time, however.

this is true, even in places outside of egypt this growth has ben witnessed.

One of the last discussions I recall mentioned recent findings which indicated that the Sahara was a verdant grassland with lakes and rivers until sometime around 5-6,000 BC

i can go along with this but my reasons for the demise of this beauty is in contrast to many on this forum.

I guess that's a good example of your logic, which shows why it is a waste of time having a discussion with you.

You are begging the question. And showing that you don't know much about the document in question.

something i can agree with doug on.

Because they were never there

so you hope.

[Guest]

i will see what gems i can post from the books i have to continue this discussion but in the meantime:

what are the assesments of you all concerning schoch and his theories?

do they contribute significantly to archaeology or not?

[marduk]

he contributes about as much to Archaeology as you do at this board Arch
i.e. nothing

[Guest]

marduk, as i told you and john before, you know nothing. there is more than having a pile of information jumbled in your head.

[marduk]

transference again Arch
go see your shrink he'll give you something for it

[Harte]

Harte, do you think the Ipuwer Papyrus describes a devastation of the land, by drought, famine, pestilence, you name it, so did it not dry out drastically there then, to end ancient Egypt's most sophisticated and majestic period at around 1500 B.C.?

I don't see any reason at all to consider the Ipuwer Papyrus as any sort of an historical record in any way.

The poem thereon is generally dated to at least a hundred years earlier than the date you give here (and possibly even earlier, as I believe Minimalist has already said), and if it has any connection at all to any real world events, it is likely either influenced by the Thera eruption, or by a nostalgia for the "good old days" of the Old Kingdom and a sense of loss for it's demise.

Harte, what date does Schoch scientifically ascribe to the water erosion of the Sphinx? I didn't know he had stated a date, so please, what date does he say?

Once again, Schoch says:

If the Great Sphinx of Giza was weathered heavily, and at an early period in its existence, by precipitation, this suggests that it initially may have been carved prior to the last great period of major precipitation in this part of the Nile Valley. Egypt was subjected to erratic floods and what is sometimes referred to as the "Nabtian Pluvial" (a period of relatively heavy rainfall) from 12,000 or 10,000 to about 5,000 years ago; and it has been suggested that there were sporadic but relatively heavy rains during the Fourth Millennium (4000 to 3000 B.C.), and a less and (sic) (EDIT - here Schoch means "arid" instead of "and" I think - Harte) climate along the Nile as late as 2350 B.C. (with relatively wetter conditions and unusually high Nile inundations recorded sporadically during historical times). [10]

Thus, on the basis of the climatic history outlined above, one might tentatively suggest that the Great Sphinx was sculpted in very early dynastic times, or in the Predynastic Period (late-Fourth Millennium or earliest-Third Millennium B.C.). However, one must account for the considerable weathering that appears on the walls of the Sphinx hollow, on the body of the sculpture itself, and on the walls of its associated temples-weathering that was possibly covered up or repaired during the Old Kingdom (ca. 2600-2400 B.C.). One must also take seismic data into account (see below)-in particular, the fact that it indicates the subsurface dissolution of the limestone beneath the floor of the Sphinx enclosure is very deep and non-uniform. These latter considerations suggest the possibility that the initial carving of the Great Sphinx may have taken place several millennia earlier than its standard attribution.

I bolded the seismic portion to denote that Schoch actually does not base his sphinx carving date on this rainwater weathering.

See the footnote? (In red, if the "font color" tab worked right.) Here's what the footnote says:

[10] For a recent summary of the evidence bearing on the Holocene climatic history of northern Egypt, see Said (1990).
W.C. Hayes summarized (in his Most Ancient Egypt [Chicago, 1965, K.C. Seele, ed.], 23) much of the classical work carried out on reconstructing the climate of this period in Egypt's history when he wrote: 'Toward the end of the sixth millennium B.C. Egypt and neighboring lands appear to have enjoyed another slight, but eff ective increase in temperature and precipitation and to have entered upon a prolonged sub-pluvial or relatively moist phase, extending from early Neolithic times until late in the Old Kingdom (ca. 5000-2350 B.C.) .... Since the end of the third millennium B.C. the climate of Egypt has been generally similar to that of the present day. Between 2350 B.C. and A.D. 700 the average temperature seems to have been, if anything, a trifle above and the average rainfall a little below the modern levels, but with at least two 'quite moist' spells, one in late-Ramesside times [ca. 1200-1100 B.C.) and one about 850 B.C."

K.W. Butzer summarized his well-known work an the same topic (Environment and Archaeology: An Ecological Approach to Prehistory [Chicago, 1971], 584):The Nile Valley provides further details and confirmation of several moist intervals... A period of accelerated wadi activity that began 9200 B.C. terrninated by 6000 B.C. Shell proliferations suggest rather more vegetation in the wadis. A little later, ca. 5000 B.C., a red paleosol suggests a mat of vegetation and more frequent gentle rains. Finally, after a second dry interlude, accelerated wadi activity and extensive sheet washing-in the wake of sporadic but heavy and protracted rains-are indicated ca. 4000- 3000 B.C. Historical and archaeological documents suggest that the desert wadi vegetation of northern and eastern Egypt was more abundant as late as 2350 B.C., when the prevailing aridity was established.'

Source: I posted this darn link three pages ago, is anyone really interested in this or do we just want to argue?

Genesis Veracity,

Now that I've taken you by the hand and led you to this information, perhaps you might consider actually "clicking" on the links to Schoch's published works that I have provided for you here in this thread (and actually reading what the man says) before you continue in this discussion. After all, let's please note the thread title.

Any further questions regarding materials in Schoch's work which I have already linked to will result in me saying "go back several pages and find it yourself."

Harte

[Guest]

And why do you think the Old Kingdom demised?

So the snowfall to form the Ice Age icepacks ended supposedly circa 10000 B.C, but the rainfall in the middle latitudes ended circa 2000 B.C.? What a novel concept.

[marduk]

i have yet to see any egyptian reliefs showing rainfall or any terrible change of the weather through the period you claim the land masses were breaking up GV
think egypt was in the same protective bubble that we previously ascertained must have existed around Mesopotamia ?

[Harte]

So the snowfall to form the Ice Age icepacks ended supposedly circa 10000 B.C, but the rainfall in the middle latitudes ended circa 2000 B.C.? What a novel concept.

Wha?

This would make post of the year at the Idiotic Doofus Moron Societies' Claptrap and Flapdoodle Forum.

Harte

[Guest]

I don't recall seeing any reliefs which depict landscapes.

Ancient Egypt sprang rapidly after the Deluge.