You've got me there Dig, what is this?outbreak of FMD
Trying to fathom farming's origins
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Sorry Beag, foot and mouth disease. I've been trying to find out exactly what crops were grown in the earliest days and just about all I can find is that they were very few. But why grow crops when nature can do it for you?
Not all crops that were grown were for eating either, Flax and Woad seem to have been amongst the earliest.
Not all crops that were grown were for eating either, Flax and Woad seem to have been amongst the earliest.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
This seems to about sum it up Beag.
http://www.arableplants.fieldguide.co.u ... HC=1&PSD=1
This sums up some of the results of the 'giant step forward'.
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/an ... 4-1a.shtml
http://www.arableplants.fieldguide.co.u ... HC=1&PSD=1
This sums up some of the results of the 'giant step forward'.
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/an ... 4-1a.shtml
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
There's a certain amount of spin in history.
The power of women in Native European culture has always been sustained at a far higher level than elsewhere.
The beginnings of that are seen in the hybridization with the Neanderthal that eradicated all but 7 mtDNA lines. That made women rare, and empowered them, especially the fecund goddess figures that could pop a kid out every year. But by the same token, the European ecosystem provided lots of powerful abortifiant and birth control herbs.
The 52,000 BP Shanidar Neanderthal shaman buried with what we now call "bachelor button" is another clue.
The Goddesses & Gods of Old Europe by Gimbutas show us all the iconography we'd expect from a culture dominated by women rather than men. And its ancestor at Chatal Hoyuk, not only shows us the earliest of these big fat bitches, Hodder shows us the frescos made by the patriarchic hunting tribes that lived there going thru transhumescence.
After a few hundred years of images of jackasses warring with each other and torturing game animals. all that suddenly stops. [period] Then, "its the economy stupid" takes over as pottery comes in, and the artistry is applied to utilitarian objects.
Then too, the human figures during the patriarchic era are little more than stick figures, but then right after it, we see the Goddess figure found nearby at Hacilar, rendered with a degree of realism that had never been seen anywhere on earth. If you dont recall, she's fairly far down the page at http://www.dc-pc.org/artifax/artifax.html
The mass of this bitch, and the dispassion seen in her face, is chilling.
DNA says this is where & when einkorn became wheat. But its also where they began more intensive breeding of swine, caproids, cattle, and.... men.
"The Leopard's tale" Hodder shows some reconstruction. Its not a place that would be conducive to brawling. With steep stairways, anyone who wanted to knock off a jackass only hadda trip or hit him on the way up or down.... to hard plaster floors. Hodder found an old man with a broken arm.
With several thousand citiizens, they dont need jackasses for defense. The houses have small rooms by our standards, which Hodder nevertheless thinks had a lotta people livi9ng in them. Makes sense. Firewood was a long way, & one fire would keep everyone warm. If they got along.
Hodder has a chart that shows that a dozen cities were abandoned near the end of the 7th mil; reports are drought. No more big pieces of wood in the fires, only brush. No more big trees.
Gimbutas shows us the whole show moved to the Danube, and by the end of the 6th mil, we have in place the most technologically advanced culture the world had ever seen with several innovations that were lost later.
It'd be interesting to have an analysis of the clay, but in any case, these are the initiators of the LBK ware found all over Europe. They found a trading post outside Paris from this era. There is abundant evidence of trade going from Salzburg all the way down the Danube to the Black sea and far up the Dneiper. Chacocite mines in the Transylvanians and Southern Germany.
the world's first bronze- like the grain sickle on the dude's shoulder at the above webpage. 5000 BC. weaving was pressed into wet clay pots. So we know they had that. Fabric was also wrapped around tool handles in the salt mines, but I've not seen the date.
They've found bronze wood working tools, which no doubt had a lot to do with the development of riven planks and thus sail boats. 6th mil. The boats were also used in trade, and that required labels on shipments. Gimbutas says she's seen over 250 carved icons for impressing on clay or wax shipment seals. The Vinca provide us with a platter with 4 lines of script. 7000 years ago.
They grew grain, so they made sprouts, so they needed seives. which have been found. And since women are in power, it looks like they wrote recipes on their pots.
Of course kids would be more important. so there are baby rattles, ceramic figures of dolls, doll furniture, & doll houses... with *chimneys*!
Likewise, with women wardrobe is important, and we see the fitted, tailored jackets, pants, skirts, & lotsa jewelry, Fig 22 of Gimbutas above has red paint on the toenails. There's also what looks like kinky lace stockings with a garter strap. No undies. No skirt. You can see her clit.
So, you shouldnt be surprised to see all the dildos either, and if you read up on the history of the "Craft" you find some strange concoctions that'd kill you if you drank them. But some of the dildos are hollow, and some have funnels attached.... they had psychedelic douches.
The 20th century Danes were scandalized when an iron age casket was opened near Egvet, which had a miniskirt in it. there are miniskirts all over these Chacolithic figures.
Naturally, this information draws lotsa flaming. But think about it dispassionately. If women are in power, then they can breed men just as they do any other kind of livestock, and select those that are the most talented geeks rather than, as patriarchy goes for, the strongest goons.
Finally, about 6000 years ago, it looks like Anthrax came in, the feminine power structure was unable to cope, discredited, and disempowered. But now, we're coming into a similar conversion like Hodder saw- because the warrior class that has been in power ever since cant protect anyone.
If you cant use violence to control men, then try sex.
The power of women in Native European culture has always been sustained at a far higher level than elsewhere.
The beginnings of that are seen in the hybridization with the Neanderthal that eradicated all but 7 mtDNA lines. That made women rare, and empowered them, especially the fecund goddess figures that could pop a kid out every year. But by the same token, the European ecosystem provided lots of powerful abortifiant and birth control herbs.
The 52,000 BP Shanidar Neanderthal shaman buried with what we now call "bachelor button" is another clue.
The Goddesses & Gods of Old Europe by Gimbutas show us all the iconography we'd expect from a culture dominated by women rather than men. And its ancestor at Chatal Hoyuk, not only shows us the earliest of these big fat bitches, Hodder shows us the frescos made by the patriarchic hunting tribes that lived there going thru transhumescence.
After a few hundred years of images of jackasses warring with each other and torturing game animals. all that suddenly stops. [period] Then, "its the economy stupid" takes over as pottery comes in, and the artistry is applied to utilitarian objects.
Then too, the human figures during the patriarchic era are little more than stick figures, but then right after it, we see the Goddess figure found nearby at Hacilar, rendered with a degree of realism that had never been seen anywhere on earth. If you dont recall, she's fairly far down the page at http://www.dc-pc.org/artifax/artifax.html
The mass of this bitch, and the dispassion seen in her face, is chilling.
DNA says this is where & when einkorn became wheat. But its also where they began more intensive breeding of swine, caproids, cattle, and.... men.
"The Leopard's tale" Hodder shows some reconstruction. Its not a place that would be conducive to brawling. With steep stairways, anyone who wanted to knock off a jackass only hadda trip or hit him on the way up or down.... to hard plaster floors. Hodder found an old man with a broken arm.
With several thousand citiizens, they dont need jackasses for defense. The houses have small rooms by our standards, which Hodder nevertheless thinks had a lotta people livi9ng in them. Makes sense. Firewood was a long way, & one fire would keep everyone warm. If they got along.
Hodder has a chart that shows that a dozen cities were abandoned near the end of the 7th mil; reports are drought. No more big pieces of wood in the fires, only brush. No more big trees.
Gimbutas shows us the whole show moved to the Danube, and by the end of the 6th mil, we have in place the most technologically advanced culture the world had ever seen with several innovations that were lost later.
It'd be interesting to have an analysis of the clay, but in any case, these are the initiators of the LBK ware found all over Europe. They found a trading post outside Paris from this era. There is abundant evidence of trade going from Salzburg all the way down the Danube to the Black sea and far up the Dneiper. Chacocite mines in the Transylvanians and Southern Germany.
the world's first bronze- like the grain sickle on the dude's shoulder at the above webpage. 5000 BC. weaving was pressed into wet clay pots. So we know they had that. Fabric was also wrapped around tool handles in the salt mines, but I've not seen the date.
They've found bronze wood working tools, which no doubt had a lot to do with the development of riven planks and thus sail boats. 6th mil. The boats were also used in trade, and that required labels on shipments. Gimbutas says she's seen over 250 carved icons for impressing on clay or wax shipment seals. The Vinca provide us with a platter with 4 lines of script. 7000 years ago.
They grew grain, so they made sprouts, so they needed seives. which have been found. And since women are in power, it looks like they wrote recipes on their pots.
Of course kids would be more important. so there are baby rattles, ceramic figures of dolls, doll furniture, & doll houses... with *chimneys*!
Likewise, with women wardrobe is important, and we see the fitted, tailored jackets, pants, skirts, & lotsa jewelry, Fig 22 of Gimbutas above has red paint on the toenails. There's also what looks like kinky lace stockings with a garter strap. No undies. No skirt. You can see her clit.
So, you shouldnt be surprised to see all the dildos either, and if you read up on the history of the "Craft" you find some strange concoctions that'd kill you if you drank them. But some of the dildos are hollow, and some have funnels attached.... they had psychedelic douches.
The 20th century Danes were scandalized when an iron age casket was opened near Egvet, which had a miniskirt in it. there are miniskirts all over these Chacolithic figures.
Naturally, this information draws lotsa flaming. But think about it dispassionately. If women are in power, then they can breed men just as they do any other kind of livestock, and select those that are the most talented geeks rather than, as patriarchy goes for, the strongest goons.
Finally, about 6000 years ago, it looks like Anthrax came in, the feminine power structure was unable to cope, discredited, and disempowered. But now, we're coming into a similar conversion like Hodder saw- because the warrior class that has been in power ever since cant protect anyone.
If you cant use violence to control men, then try sex.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
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Rokcet Scientist
Dunno where you got that idea, Dig. In fact I'm a great fan of the Solutrean theory. I even went so far as to post a couple maps. But that pertains to Pleistocene ocean crossings. Those were one-way crossings, though. And not by sea, but roving the ice shelf, hunting prey. Walking!Digit wrote:It's to do with you refusing to accept the evidence of Atlantic crossings pre BC.
When the ice pack melted and the Beringian landbridge was cut, NA's inhabitants were cut of from the rest of the world for thousands of years. Possibly until early AD (Irish monks).
That was the holocene. At the very start of which the Solutreans – Clovis – disappeared mysteriously.
During the holocene it looks like there were very, very few crossings to NA. And none from NA. Ever! There seem to have been a lot more to MA and SA: Olmec reliefs and mummy coke!
In case you are not aware of it RS the attempts at crossing ice carrying or hauling supplies has resulted in a number of deaths as it is not possible to take sufficient supplies for the journey.
Would you walk some 4000 miles? You could not even carry sufficient fuel to cook with.
Would you walk some 4000 miles? You could not even carry sufficient fuel to cook with.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
Nice links. Thanks Digit.Digit wrote:This seems to about sum it up Beag.
http://www.arableplants.fieldguide.co.u ... HC=1&PSD=1
This sums up some of the results of the 'giant step forward'.
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/an ... 4-1a.shtml
I also found out Beag that there is a group promoting the idea of a 'Neolithic' diet with the advantages of no heart diesease, no cancer, no depression etc etc.
And the average life expectancy was 35 yrs!
And the average life expectancy was 35 yrs!
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Rokcet Scientist
In case you're not aware of it – and apparently you aren't – Inuit, a.k.a. Eskimos, can live all their lives, for many generations, on the ice. Never even touching land.Digit wrote:
In case you are not aware of it RS the attempts at crossing ice carrying or hauling supplies has resulted in a number of deaths as it is not possible to take sufficient supplies for the journey.
They don't take sufficient supplies for the journey, because they live "off the land". "Off the ice" in this case, of course. You got very high caloric sea mammal or penguin skin, fat, meat, and bones, and all the fish you want. It is all you need to survive. For as long as you like.
No, but I would walk 10 miles each day in search for food.
Would you walk some 4000 miles?
And you're forgetting the Solutreans didn't know 1) that it was a 3,000 mile walk: they knew nothing at all, and 2) they didn't know that there was a continent you could go to in the first place! They had no clue. They were just following their food. And eventually stumbled upon the NA continent. Purely by accident.
In theory it's even possible they circled the pole 3 times before they landed in NA. Who knows how long that trek lasted? Could have been centuries!
No need: seal, whale and penguin fat burns like a charm, Dig. And it's all around you, on the ice.
You could not even carry sufficient fuel to cook with.
Along with these bloody mythical Penguins, and why the hell would they bother to walk all that way when, to quote yourself in other posts, they wouldn't know the land was there.
By the way, the Inuit use boats! Several types of skin boats!
By the way, the Inuit use boats! Several types of skin boats!
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Rokcet Scientist
There were not trying to go to another continent. They didn't even know there was another continent! They were simply chasing their prey.Digit wrote:
Along with these bloody mythical Penguins, and why the hell would they bother to walk all that way when, to quote yourself in other posts, they wouldn't know the land was there.
Yep, but not to cross oceans. They are for short hunting and fishing trips only.
By the way, the Inuit use boats! Several types of skin boats!
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Minimalist
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_75333117
The first Americans, according to the standard view, arrived about 12,000 years ago by way of a land bridge that once connected Siberia and Alaska. Thanks to a handful of sites like Cactus Hill, it is now beyond dispute that some people got here much earlier. Asia remains a likely source for migrations, because of its proximity and the fact that today's Indians indisputably have ancestors who lived there. But Asia may not be the only source, and there's good reason to think it wasn't.
In truth, there is a Stone Age technology that looks an awful lot like Clovis, and its existence troubled Stanford and Bradley: The culture that produced it wasn't found in Siberia, where just about everybody would have expected it, but at the other end of the same landmass-in modern-day France and Spain. It's called Solutrean, and it vanished some 20,000 years ago. Stanford and Bradley were especially intrigued by the fact that the greatest concentration of Clovis sites occurs in the southeastern United States: If the technology is native to the Americas, it was probably invented in this area. If it wasn't native, then this was probably the site to which it was imported-on the side of the North American continent facing Europe. But a pair of insurmountable obstacles appeared to separate the Clovis and Solutrean cultures: several thousand years, and a large ocean.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Rokcet Scientist
The difference? That's easy: the difference is the goal of the (boat) trip. 10 mile 'hops' would be for hunting, chasing prey. Then you set up camp. Next day: next hunting trip. After which you set up camp again (on the ice pack). So on, so forth. But they would lead the Solutreans eventually, automatically, to NA. BY ACCIDENT!Digit wrote:RS. Please explain the difference between a boat trip of, say 20 mls, and one of a 1000mls done in stages?