Sheesh. That site is like a woman's magazine. 2/3's ads and 1/3 content.kbs2244 wrote: www.borobudurshipexpedition.com
Comet Theory Boosted
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Rokcet Scientist
After which, at some point, it would have to be hauled up again.Digit wrote:Why not? There is only one best solution to a given problem.Does it remind anybody of reed boats?
The big mystery to me about European ships at least is why the Hell they stuck for so long with hauling sails upwards when most people had realised that it was easier, and required a lot less manpower, to simply lower the yard.
Square-rigged European ships of the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th century let their sails down from yards, Dig, because sails are lighter and quicker to haul than yards.
Like so:
In fact the Greeks, the Phoenicians, and the Romans already did that. And don't forget the celtic Irish, and the vikings. So it must've been at least 3,000 years that this concept was used in Europe!
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Sat May 10, 2008 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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How many different ways are there to design a mast, though?kbs2244 wrote:BTW.
Note the mast design.
Does it remind anybody of reed boats?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Rokcet Scientist
Numerous ways, Min. Number, height, cross section, flexibility, tensile strength, angle, maintenance, etc. Just some of the ways you can approach the design of a mast.
Today there are carbon fiber aerofoil shaped masts – no sails – that continually reposition themselves – they pivot – to optimize wind efficiency.
The topic is a bottomless pit, I'm afraid.
Hey, there's even a no mast concept: this german built oceanfreighter is sailing with a humongous kite as we speak.
Today there are carbon fiber aerofoil shaped masts – no sails – that continually reposition themselves – they pivot – to optimize wind efficiency.
The topic is a bottomless pit, I'm afraid.
Hey, there's even a no mast concept: this german built oceanfreighter is sailing with a humongous kite as we speak.
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Mon May 12, 2008 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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But the ancients seemed to stick a pole in the deck and hang a sail from it. I don't know how much science there was behind it. Granted we only have representations of ancient vessels for the most part but still....the mast seems uncomplicated compared to the hull.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
A single stick mast needs a long and strong piece of wood.
And even then it needs to have a lot of rope rigging to stiffen it.
One of the first things the Brits did in New England was send scouts through the forests looking for tall, straight trees suitable for masts. There were none left in Britain. They marked those trees with a big, up pointing, arrow curved into the bark. The “Kings Arrow.” It meant the tree belonged to the Royal Navy and it was capitol crime to cut it down for any other use.
In Europe where they had tall, straight hardwood trees that kind of mast made sense.
But in a part of the world where the palm is the most common tree, the tripod mast made sense. You could use the relativity weak wood of the palm to build it. It was almost self supporting, so less rigging was needed, and it spread the forces out across more of the vessel.
Because of it’s broader base spreading out this stress it also was better suited for running the bow to stern rope that you see in all the PICS of early Mid Eastern boats. This rope was needed because of the relativity week hulls that would buckle in the middle without some kind of bracing.
It became the default design in the Indian Ocean basin. It is still in use today. I saw one in the background when watching a news clip from somewhere in the Mid East.
And even then it needs to have a lot of rope rigging to stiffen it.
One of the first things the Brits did in New England was send scouts through the forests looking for tall, straight trees suitable for masts. There were none left in Britain. They marked those trees with a big, up pointing, arrow curved into the bark. The “Kings Arrow.” It meant the tree belonged to the Royal Navy and it was capitol crime to cut it down for any other use.
In Europe where they had tall, straight hardwood trees that kind of mast made sense.
But in a part of the world where the palm is the most common tree, the tripod mast made sense. You could use the relativity weak wood of the palm to build it. It was almost self supporting, so less rigging was needed, and it spread the forces out across more of the vessel.
Because of it’s broader base spreading out this stress it also was better suited for running the bow to stern rope that you see in all the PICS of early Mid Eastern boats. This rope was needed because of the relativity week hulls that would buckle in the middle without some kind of bracing.
It became the default design in the Indian Ocean basin. It is still in use today. I saw one in the background when watching a news clip from somewhere in the Mid East.
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Rokcet Scientist
That depends on the size of the sails (determined by the size of the ship).Digit wrote:Lowering a yard RS can be done from deck level, difficult with raising sails.
...it seems so. Another difference is the size of those ships compared to the European ocean-going ships. The latter required much more sail, which would be very difficult to haul up complete with its yards.Yard movement seems to be more of an oriental procedure.
To be sure: it can be done. And it is being done. Using a capstan and up to 48 men. But it is very slow. Far too slow to use while sailing. So they did/do that only for maintenance. To replace a broken yard, for instance. Preferably when in port, of course.
So, while sailing, climbing up on the yards and manually hauling the sails is the only possibility to manage them in a useful manner. Because it is just quick enough.
Do some research on this puppy.
It gives you some idea of what can be done with nothing but the wind.
It was Western (German) sailing technology pushed to it’s limits.
A whole lot of engineering went into it.
http://www.schoonerman.com/royalcl.html
http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/26.html
I am sorry if I come across as a little passionate on the sailing concept in pre-history. My father was career U S Navy with an eye for history.
I learned a lot from him that other land lubbers would never have even considered as a possibility.
He saw entire sailing cultures that are completely overlooked by professors in their libraries.
There are whole populations in various Asian river ports that never set foot on dry land for generations.
It gives you some idea of what can be done with nothing but the wind.
It was Western (German) sailing technology pushed to it’s limits.
A whole lot of engineering went into it.
http://www.schoonerman.com/royalcl.html
http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/26.html
I am sorry if I come across as a little passionate on the sailing concept in pre-history. My father was career U S Navy with an eye for history.
I learned a lot from him that other land lubbers would never have even considered as a possibility.
He saw entire sailing cultures that are completely overlooked by professors in their libraries.
There are whole populations in various Asian river ports that never set foot on dry land for generations.
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Rokcet Scientist
I have a little bit of an idea of sailing in general too, you might say: also Navy career officer's son, got into boats at 7, formal sailing training at 11, sailed many inland European waterways, the Med, the Aegean, the western European and western African coasts.kbs2244 wrote:Do some research on this puppy.
It gives you some idea of what can be done with nothing but the wind.
It was Western (German) sailing technology pushed to it’s limits.
A whole lot of engineering went into it.
http://www.schoonerman.com/royalcl.html
http://sailing-ships.oktett.net/26.html
I am sorry if I come across as a little passionate on the sailing concept in pre-history. My father was career U S Navy with an eye for history.
I learned a lot from him that other land lubbers would never have even considered as a possibility.
He saw entire sailing cultures that are completely overlooked by professors in their libraries.
There are whole populations in various Asian river ports that never set foot on dry land for generations.
My dad had a classical education steeped in Latin, Greek, and history, but after an exemplary Naval career focused on/and became an international expert at genealogy, heraldry, and paleography (deciphering old handwritings).
The obsession with pre and early history is all mine (as are theology and anthropology). But the background aimed my general direction as well, of course.
Funny, innit?
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/bioastr2002.pdf
This pdf gives an excellent review of earth's cataclysmic history. The beginning of this article starts with the dinosaurs, which is not germaine to this topic, but moves on to include human history. Good charts and graphs.Collisions between the
Earth and comets or asteroids (collectively
called "microplanets" in this paper) produce a
wide range of environmental stresses and are
therefore potential sources of new
evolutionary directions.
Did anybody see the Bruce Willis movie where he and a bunch of his oil well drilling buddies go out and blow up an incoming asteroid?
The best part of the whole thing was the introduction in the first 15 minuets.
Asia gets hit by one that pretty well destroys everything from Hong Kong to Indonesia.
That gets everyone’s attention and during a Presidential Briefing on the incoming threat Billy Bob Thorten gets the line off “That was a Volkswagen. This one is the size of Texas.”
The best part of the whole thing was the introduction in the first 15 minuets.
Asia gets hit by one that pretty well destroys everything from Hong Kong to Indonesia.
That gets everyone’s attention and during a Presidential Briefing on the incoming threat Billy Bob Thorten gets the line off “That was a Volkswagen. This one is the size of Texas.”