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"Yes but if two shamans went to the same timeless place but at different times (in this dimension), as there was no time in the timeless place, how come they didn't meet there because every moment there should be now."

Ish, you are defining time as a linear construct within "this" dimension and there is no such animal. The two shamans may meet wherever they wish - the whenever is irrelevant.

John is correct, Quantum Mechanics and Shamanism do not contradict.

Yes, I know Cogs. I got myself in a tangle.

Experiencing this sort of thing is easy. Explaining it is not so easy .. for me, anyway. I'm not even sure half the time what I'm doing (from a rational point of view) when I journey. I just do it. That's because I was taught experientially. We were, as a deliberate act, given no theory and just taught to do it. This was so that when we came back from journeying, the rational side of our minds couldn't try to discount what had happened by saying: "Yes, but you just imagined that as you were told that that's what would happen."

We were just given the means to journey and that was it ... off we went. And that's why it was so staggering to me, on my very first journey, to find myself in places that I only found out later had been well documented by shamans going way back into the past. But it is also why I can very easily get into tangle when I try to explain it rationally.

We did once have an exercise where one of us would hide in another dimension, and another shaman would journey to find us. I didn't have much luck with it myself, but my partner found me very easily, hiding behind a rock by a lake on top of a mountain. As I looked up, I saw her coming towards over me lake. Afterwards, she described the location perfectly. But don't ask me to explain how and why that works. I haven't a clue, even now.


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For those who have an interest and can refrain from crossing their eyes while reading up on Quantum Theory, start here with Quantum Entanglement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

The above represents science delving into the realm of the spooky. It has recently been proved that the same object can exist in two places at once - more spooky!

How did we get from boats to quantum theory?

Not by boat....I can tell you that.

kbs2244 wrote:How did we get from boats to quantum theory?

Quite naturally, I think.

Man first took to boats because he wanted to find out who he was. Why a boat? Because he is made up mainly of salt water.

So he used his natural habitat to find his own reflection mirrored in its depths, as he journeyed to discover new worlds of new peoples and see his own image sparkling in their eyes.

Of course, as ever, the exploration needed to be justified by a good, solid rationale and a cost benefit analysis. Thus the economic outcome would be held up like a talisman to the tribe as the ostensible reason for the trip, whether it was a much needed new home or new opportunitites for trade. But we cannot surely think that if man hadn't needed a new home or new opportunities to trade, that he would never have gotten into a boat?

So in man's continual search for who he is, we have reached this juncture - there are no new worlds left for us to discover on this planet. We have taken to exploring other planets ... but what we are finding when we get there is just more of the same. Sure, we got Teflon-coated pans from going to the moon ... but it wasn't really what we were looking for, was it? Perhaps we would almost have preferred it if the moon had turned out to be made of green cheese or that there really had been a Man in the Moon - anything to give us back that sense of mystery and enquiry about who we really are.







So after all that, we were becalmed. We'd hit the doldrums .... until some bright spark discovered quantum physics, and quantum physics discovered dark matter.

With the discovery of the dark matter also dawned the humbling realisation that we are only seeing four per cent of all that there is. Four per cent! No wonder we keep ending up with Teflon pans!

We also now know that the microcosm is a reflection of the macrocosm. That the beautifully symmetrical and symphonic mathematical equations that hold this universe together are mirrored in those that hold us together. So whether it's the remaining 96 per cent dark matter of outer space or the remaining 96 per cent dark matter of our minds, the sea of the unconscious - we are now inspired again to recognise an ocean of opportunities to explore new worlds, new dimensions, both inner and outer, in the never ending journey of discovery that is life.

So onward me hearties, and let us bravely embark upon a new voyage across the seas of Infinity. The Captain's name is Beefheart. The Bosun's name is Higgs. If the waves get too high, we'll just change them into particles. The mermaids are magis, the pirates are poets and there will be no fear of sea serpents aboard the good ship, the dragon-proud Dawn Treader.

So:
It was, is, and will be, quite a trip!

BTW
When did salt water develop cognition?

The embarkation port to the dark matter of inner space - the sea of the unconscious - has been considered, since ancient times, to be the pineal gland, which is situated at the base of the hypothalamus. Some people have referred to this as 'the third eye'.

Various yogic-type practises raised the two ‘serpents’ (known in India as Ida and Pingala) of electric and magnetic energy up from where they lay coiled at the base of the spine. As they rise up, the two serpents of energy cross over at, and activate, major chakras (energy wheels or hubs) until they meet at the brim of the 'cup' of the hypothalamus. This creates an electromagnetic reaction with the pineal gland that transforms it into something like a crystal transmitter/receiver to link the practitioner to what we now call quantum dimensions.

The adepts of the serpent rites would have followed these practises, and as the energy raises up the ‘djed’ (as it’s known in the Egyptian rites) some of it spreads off at the shoulder blades.




According to my research, this is the meaning of the symbol of the Egyptian and Mesopotamian winged serpent and the Mesoamerican plumed serpent.




It was the secret teaching at the heart of the serpent rites and, quite probably, the Mystery rites as well - even spreading into Christian Gnosticism as Ophism, which had stories centred around Sophia and Aberamentho (king of serpents).

We see the serpent cult in the Garden of Eden story, although it derived from an earlier Mesopotamian myth (shown in this clay drawing below of Ishtar and the World Tree dated around 2330 BCE), and then the Christian religion changed the wise serpent into the devil.



Because the serpent practises were worldwide from about the Neolithic onwards, iirc, the serpent was known by a number of names, including EA, Ops or Oph, Ab, Drac (Dragon) and Hu. In some places it was also known as Cad, and this is the real meaning of the Cadaceus.



So it's quite appropriate that our ship is in the shape of a dragon!


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I am waiting for seeker to tell us
"What a long, strange trip it has been."

I found this from Wikipedia on the pineal gland. It is a quote from Denis Hollier in his Against Architecture about how the pineal eye, as he calls it, takes us beyond reason and classical science:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland

"But the head has a hole in it. The pineal eye, the organ of not-knowing, is the undoing of science. If science thought up man, the pineal eye unthinks him, spends him extravagantly, makes him lose the reserve in which, at the summit, from his head position, he was guarding himself."

In this work Hollier discusses how [the French writer Georges] Bataille uses the concept of a 'pineal-eye' as a reference to a blind-spot in Western rationality.

"When I carefully seek out, in deepest anguish, some strange absurdity, an eye opens at the top, in the middle of my skull. This eye opening up onto the sun in all its glory, to contemplate it in its nakedness, privately, is not the work of my reason: it is a cry escaping from me. For at the moment when the flash blinds me, I am the splintering brilliance of a shattered life, and this life - agony and vertigo - opening up onto an infinite void, bursts and exhausts itself all at once in this void."

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Minimalist wrote:Not by boat....I can tell you that.

Hold your horses, Minimalist -

800k years ago, the cognition of boats

Was quantum mechanics, for its time.

Check this out:

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/64321-post1.html

And it still is -

A forty + knot 90' trimaran.

Check out the picture where she's sailing on

One amah with hull entirely out of water,

Except for hydrofoil keel.

Freaking incredible.

I had the good fortune to be traveling from LaConner to Port Angeles

Via a Cessna 172 when we saw this critter seatrialing

On the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

Even from 4500 feet, that boat was huge.

50 meter mast. Holy shit.


hoka hey


john

Yeah but kb asked how we got from boats to quantum theory.

Minimalist wrote:Yeah but kb asked how we got from boats to quantum theory.

Minimalist -

Turn the sock inside out.

Early boats were the expression of Quantum theory.

Quantum theory is a moving target .............

john

I don't know, John.


I think early boats were a way to cross water without drowning.


Did there really have to be a lot more thought put into it?

My dear Min,

As you rightly say, in order to create a means of getting across the water without being drowned, we had to first think of a way to do it. But once you’re thinking, you’ve left the Newtonian world and entered the Quantum one.

Newtonian principles only apply to substances that are more than a thousandth of an inch in mass - like apples - and this makes them nice and predictable with what falls down staying down.





But thoughts come from tiny transmitters that are less than a thousandth of an inch in mass, and thus this makes them sub-atomic. Sub-atomic particles are too small to have a gravitational pull and so they obey Quantum principles, not Newtonian ones – and the scientists are still trying to work out what these are.







Of course, they could ask the shamans – but that would really be a crossing of the Rubicon, by both sides. There would probably be the most fearful row, with the scientists insisting that the shamans should be more rational and objective, and the shamans trying to point out that there's more to life than rationality and that subjectivity has its place too.







It's a shame, though, because if only they could listen to one another, the shamans could explain their subjective experience of how they see and hear sub-atomic particles, like thoughts and thought forms, behaving as they cross the Quantum Sea.

Here's a for instance.

Min, if one day you’re up in the crows nest and you see what looks like a huge tornado coming towards us, make sure you yell out and we’ll change our course. Well, we’ll either do that, or we’ll start singing.

That’s because those big ‘uns are usually terror tornadoes, whipped up by the fear and loathing of the Masters of War. When they make landfall, they can wreak devastation across wide swathes of land and change the shape of countries, making them unrecognisable on the map.







Terror tornadoes are enormous vortexes of millions of fearful and hysterical voices that can deafen you with their echoing babblings. These are the real Tower of Babels - consisting of fearful thoughts caused by sensationalised media horror stories that have become entangled with one another. They are caught up in this vortex because they have all agreed upon the same distorted reality, the same terrifying lie.

If you fly over one of those, make sure you stay as high above it as you can, or you could get sucked in ... they’re almost as powerful as black holes.

But if you find yourself pulled into one, don’t panic. Just sing. One refrain of Old MacDonald Had a Farm, and you will be ejected as fast as a drunk from Annabel's nightclub.









It can’t stand the harmony, you see.


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