How THEY handled rising sea levels

[Digit]

This debate reminds of a stupid statement in the British press about GW and other risks to us, the report stated that natural disasters are becoming worse and more frequent. The evidence? More people die from them now than in the past!
I imagine some morons believe it!

Roy.

[E.P. Grondine]

This debate reminds of a stupid statement in the British press about GW and other risks to us, the report stated that natural disasters are becoming worse and more frequent. The evidence? More people die from them now than in the past!
I imagine some morons believe it!

Roy.

Hi Roy - As neither the AGW nor anti-AGW folks will talk about the ozone holes, I will.

We know there are growing holes in the ozone layer at both poles. Ozone filters out ultraviolet, while reflecting infrared back to the surface of the Earth. This UV flow may account for some of the melting the AGW folks are making so much of.

While we know that these holes are resulting in skin cancers and surgery and deaths, another worry is the that energy level differences that these holes MAY be producing MAY be making worse rather intense weather systems, such as Hurricane Katrina.

Some deny that freon was responsible, and that these holes are natural phenomenon, like the recent warming. As I've had a stroke, I don't have brains enough to say myself with any certainty, but I do have brains enough to know that those who are researching the atmosphere and climate need all the support they can get.

In any case, it does seem to me that we (and by that I mean mankind) need to stop using our atmosphere as a dump.

[dannan14]

i remember reading a few articles awhile back stating the hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic had been recovering. This wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion says the size of the hole peaked in Sept. 2006 and has been shrinking since then. E.P., do you have a good link for some basic info on this problem? The entirety of my knowledge on the subject was gained from skimming news articles and it has been years since i read any.

[kbs2244]

“While we know that these holes are resulting in skin cancers and surgery and deaths, another worry is the that energy level differences that these holes MAY be producing MAY be making worse rather intense weather systems, such as Hurricane Katrina.”

I have to take exception with that post E.P.

“While we know that these holes are resulting in skin cancers and surgery and deaths, “
How do we “know?”

The ozone holes are at the poles.
How many people live there?
If there is any increase, and that is debatable since the reported cases may just me due to increased public hysteria, it is at the Equator latitudes.
That is a long way from the poles.

“another worry is the that energy level differences that these holes MAY be producing MAY be making worse rather intense weather systems, such as Hurricane Katrina.”

Katrina was not an unusual storm.
It was category three out in the Gulf. It had fallen to a category two by the time it made landfall
We get storms that size every year.
And have for years.
The only reason Katrina is famous is that it hit a famous US playground and exposed the political corruption that had been siphoning off disaster prevention funds for generations.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Katrina was not an unusual storm.
It was category three out in the Gulf. It had fallen to a category two by the time it made landfall
We get storms that size every year.
And have for years.
The only reason Katrina is famous is that it hit a famous US playground and exposed the political corruption that had been siphoning off disaster prevention funds for generations.

Quite.

[Digit]

Re the skin cancer bit kb, the hole doesn't have a sharp edge, the thinning is gradual so that most of nothern Europe has/had seasonally less ozone density at certain times.
It is also true of course that skin cancers in the Uk are more numerous now because of the change in habits of the people.

Roy.

[E.P. Grondine]

“While we know that these holes are resulting in skin cancers and surgery and deaths, “
How do we “know?”

I think Australia has the best data on that. Canada and Norway follow. I'm not too sure about Argentina and Chile. But if you google Australia, skin cancer, and ozone that should drop you in to the relevant materials.

You might want to google cataracts and ozone as well.

“another worry is the that energy level differences that these holes MAY be producing MAY be making worse rather intense weather systems, such as Hurricane Katrina.”

Katrina was not an unusual storm.
It was category three out in the Gulf. It had fallen to a category two by the time it made landfall
We get storms that size every year.
And have for years.
The only reason Katrina is famous is that it hit a famous US playground and exposed the political corruption that had been siphoning off disaster prevention funds for generations.

Are you real sure about that category 2 statement? How about settling for a 2.5 or 2.7?

New Orleans was a whole lot more than a playground; it was and is a major industrial center and port and transportation hub, and educational and medical center for the region and nation.
( I should mention here that I lived in New Orleans for a bit, and my thoughts of what happened there bring sorrow to me.)

You haven't read "Come Hell or High Water" yet, and the detailed story of decades of incompetence shown in it. But Bush Jr's appointees to FEMA were simply incompetent as well, and that has to be acknowledged.

Yes, they should have known. The colonial records alone should have given them warning; I even recovered one Native American major hurricane account for my book.

What we've been experiencing here in Illinois is unusually high temps, then unusually low temps. Of course thats a local sample and anecdotal at that, but that energy difference is one of the things that has me very concerned.

Like I said before, neither the AGW folks nor the anti-AGW folks are looking at these holes, and that is another area for concern.

Well, here we are again discussing AGW yet another day on the archaeologica bbs.

[E.P. Grondine]

i remember reading a few articles awhile back stating the hole in the ozone layer over the Antarctic had been recovering. This wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion says the size of the hole peaked in Sept. 2006 and has been shrinking since then. E.P., do you have a good link for some basic info on this problem? The entirety of my knowledge on the subject was gained from skimming news articles and it has been years since i read any.

No, I don't have a good link, and lack the ability to gather what I collected, type it in, and post it here. (that was in about 1995-1996) The TOMS satellites were run out of U Md back when I was reporting space.

I think that the article you're referring to may have said the rate was down, not the total hole size. Given the lack of catalysts for the depletion reactions following the Columbia disaster, I would not be surprised by either. Here's a nice link:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13117854.400

Now try to imagine that problem growing far worse if the Ares 1 launcher had of gone into use (thankfully dead now).

By the way, this is the archaeological bbs, isn't it?

[dannan14]

By the way, this is the archaeological bbs, isn't it?

True, but we've never been good about staying on topic. Thanks for the info on the ozone layer.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Hey guys, you're forgetting the Yellowstone supervolcano's eruption, the east coast tsunami, the west coast big one, a couple more hurricanes in the Gulf, and ter'rists everywhere!

And that's just in the continental US...

[kbs2244]

Since we are well off topic I can’t let these pass.

First I was wrong as the Katrina’s storm strength.
It was a Cat 5 out in the Gulf and fell to just under a Cat 3 at landfall.

Second

“But Bush Jr's appointees to FEMA were simply incompetent as well, and that has to be acknowledged”

I will not acknowledge that.
The Federal Government cannot come in on a natural disaster until the State Government requests it.
But that is a little legal detail that was never reported.
It is one of the few things left over from the days when the States had “Rights.”

This is from the Wikpedia entry on Katrina

“Michael Chertoff, Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, decided to take over the federal, state, and local operations officially on August 30, 2005, citing the National Response Plan. This was refused by Governor Blanco who indicated that her National Guard could manage.”

August 30th was the day after landfall, but it was weeks before the joke the people of Louisiana call a State Government requested Federal help.

By then the game was over.

The only thing worth saving was the Congressman’s freezer.

BTW, All this may have something to do with "rising sea levels."

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] lack the ability to gather what I collected, type it in, and post it here. [...]

(underline mine)

Doesn't copy/paste work for you, E.P.?

[E.P. Grondine]

Since we are well off topic I can’t let these pass.

First I was wrong as the Katrina’s storm strength.
It was a Cat 5 out in the Gulf and fell to just under a Cat 3 at landfall.
{/quote]

I've made mistakes before, and I retain the right to be wrong both now and in the future.

Second

“But Bush Jr's appointees to FEMA were simply incompetent as well, and that has to be acknowledged”

I will not acknowledge that.
The Federal Government cannot come in on a natural disaster until the State Government requests it.
But that is a little legal detail that was never reported.
It is one of the few things left over from the days when the States had “Rights.”

This is from the Wikpedia entry on Katrina

“Michael Chertoff, Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, decided to take over the federal, state, and local operations officially on August 30, 2005, citing the National Response Plan. This was refused by Governor Blanco who indicated that her National Guard could manage.”

August 30th was the day after landfall, but it was weeks before the joke the people of Louisiana call a State Government requested Federal help.

Wrong. For an accurate account, read come "Hell or High Water".

[E.P. Grondine]

[...] lack the ability to gather what I collected, type it in, and post it here. [...]

(underline mine)

Doesn't copy/paste work for you, E.P.?

Not for interview tapes with primary researchers, little less the printed materials.

[kbs2244]

“Wrong?”
You have to be a little more specific than that E.P.

Hell and High Water is a hack job book.

Joseph Romm jumped on the Global Warming bandwagon early in it’s publicity.
He has made a career of dire predictions ever since.
A well paid career at that.

He predictions are considered to be about as likely to come true as Paul Ehrlich’s in The Population bomb.

He certainly cannot change a historical timeline.