Holocaust in America?
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Rokcet Scientist
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Leona Conner
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Okay, Mini. The Olmecs lived on the central coast of the Gulf of Mexico, from Veracruz to just west of the Yucatán Peninsula, in the swampy jungle river basins of the present-day Mexican states of Veracruz and Tabasco.
Was fortunate to see some of them on one of my many trips to Mexico, and I thought they were breath-taking. What really caught my attention was that they looked so African. Unlike the Mayans, who I still think look somewhat Oriental around the eyes, especailly when you see them in person. I have pictures of the head but they're 40 years old and in not too good a condition since I moved to the humid southeast. But if I can find one I will try to let you know where to look.
Was fortunate to see some of them on one of my many trips to Mexico, and I thought they were breath-taking. What really caught my attention was that they looked so African. Unlike the Mayans, who I still think look somewhat Oriental around the eyes, especailly when you see them in person. I have pictures of the head but they're 40 years old and in not too good a condition since I moved to the humid southeast. But if I can find one I will try to let you know where to look.
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fossiltrader
- Posts: 127
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Merely that as with US research trying to track back further intime we too do the same regionalismn is a big issue here however it is profesional death to mention it too loud.Morewod mentioned regionalismn back in 1982 but even back then he was careful. here to mention aboriginals as not being the first merely later arrivals for all practical purposes closes the door on co-operation from the native people and without that you dont work.The artical i posted is unusual in that what is written there i never have seen before at the universities and with my peers such things are best talked of in private.
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Frank Harrist
more info
"Frank,
I think there are some real problems with the Solutrean connection based simply on temporal considerations. However, combine those with criticisms of the actual comparisons and I find it untenable. The comparison of outre passe' (overshot) flakes works with Clovis, but not Pre-Clovis (none found with them so far). The blades found with Pre-Clovis at Meadowcroft are just as likely to be accidental long soft hammer or pressure flakes as intentional ones made on conical cores (which Solutrean and Clovis made). There are conical cores with the Pre-Clovis at Cactus Hill. The microblades from Topper are not convincing as true tools and definitely are made differentely than Solutrean forms. I do like some of the unifaces from Topper as good Pre-Clovis tools, but not much else from the supposed 16,000 BP level. I'm waiting to see what is supposedly at the 50,000+ level, if anything! If it is more bend-break stuff and microblade-like things in the early level, then it will take a heck of a lot of convincing to make folks believe there is something there.
As for the North Atlantic being a nasty place during the Glacial Maximum, it would have been cold, but not as cold as Siberia. The coldest place on the planet during the Glacial Maximum would have been Siberia -- right where those hypothesized land bridge walkers would have been staging to come to the New World in the Clovis-first hypothesis. The North Atlantic would have been ice berg heaven. The ice flows probably had harbor seals and other sea mammals perched on them that could have provided food to any journeying Solutreans (if they could do it). Sanford has argued that Solutrean had boats based on some sites in Spain that yielded sea mammal remains. However, the technology that was needed to cross the north Atlantic at Glacial Maximum would have been what we see with Eskimos and their ancestors. Nothing like it appears with Solutrean. So it is unlikely they made it across the North Atlantic.
Conversely, watercraft definitely were known in Asia prior to the Glacial Maximum. People made it into Australia by 40,000 years ago and Japan not too much later. Watercraft are needed to reach either place. That, along with the genetic data which indicates all Native American populations are ultimately derived from Asiatic groups, strongly suggests the earliest groups in the New World came out of Asia -- probably via water and not over the land bridge.
Mark A. McConaughy"
I think there are some real problems with the Solutrean connection based simply on temporal considerations. However, combine those with criticisms of the actual comparisons and I find it untenable. The comparison of outre passe' (overshot) flakes works with Clovis, but not Pre-Clovis (none found with them so far). The blades found with Pre-Clovis at Meadowcroft are just as likely to be accidental long soft hammer or pressure flakes as intentional ones made on conical cores (which Solutrean and Clovis made). There are conical cores with the Pre-Clovis at Cactus Hill. The microblades from Topper are not convincing as true tools and definitely are made differentely than Solutrean forms. I do like some of the unifaces from Topper as good Pre-Clovis tools, but not much else from the supposed 16,000 BP level. I'm waiting to see what is supposedly at the 50,000+ level, if anything! If it is more bend-break stuff and microblade-like things in the early level, then it will take a heck of a lot of convincing to make folks believe there is something there.
As for the North Atlantic being a nasty place during the Glacial Maximum, it would have been cold, but not as cold as Siberia. The coldest place on the planet during the Glacial Maximum would have been Siberia -- right where those hypothesized land bridge walkers would have been staging to come to the New World in the Clovis-first hypothesis. The North Atlantic would have been ice berg heaven. The ice flows probably had harbor seals and other sea mammals perched on them that could have provided food to any journeying Solutreans (if they could do it). Sanford has argued that Solutrean had boats based on some sites in Spain that yielded sea mammal remains. However, the technology that was needed to cross the north Atlantic at Glacial Maximum would have been what we see with Eskimos and their ancestors. Nothing like it appears with Solutrean. So it is unlikely they made it across the North Atlantic.
Conversely, watercraft definitely were known in Asia prior to the Glacial Maximum. People made it into Australia by 40,000 years ago and Japan not too much later. Watercraft are needed to reach either place. That, along with the genetic data which indicates all Native American populations are ultimately derived from Asiatic groups, strongly suggests the earliest groups in the New World came out of Asia -- probably via water and not over the land bridge.
Mark A. McConaughy"
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Rokcet Scientist
Re: more info
"[...] along with the genetic data which indicates all Native American populations are ultimately derived from Asiatic groups,"
This is quite a bold statement. Not in line with many others I've seen on the subject. So some substantiation would be welcome. What genetic research would that be? Is there a formal report?
Maps of the last glacial maximum invariably show the extent of the land ice. Never of the sea ice! As if there wasn't any. But if today most of the Northern Ice Sea is covered with sea ice (hence the name) one may assume that at the glacial maximum sea ice covered ten times as much sea area. In fact most of the northern Atlantic Ocean. Draw a line from Brittanny in France to Maine, USA. That would roughly be the southern edge of the sea ice sheet at glacial maximum, 18,000 years ago (not very long before Clovis appeared! Coincidence? Naah...). People could WALK from Europe to America. Sure, it would take years and years and years. Generations even, probably.
Impossible? Not really: the Inuit, today, can live their entire lives on the ice without ever touching land. So the Solutreans most probably could too. Their respective technologies and toolsets probably weren't much different! Travel by watercraft would have been the exception, rather than the rule. They 'simply' WALKED!
This is quite a bold statement. Not in line with many others I've seen on the subject. So some substantiation would be welcome. What genetic research would that be? Is there a formal report?
Maps of the last glacial maximum invariably show the extent of the land ice. Never of the sea ice! As if there wasn't any. But if today most of the Northern Ice Sea is covered with sea ice (hence the name) one may assume that at the glacial maximum sea ice covered ten times as much sea area. In fact most of the northern Atlantic Ocean. Draw a line from Brittanny in France to Maine, USA. That would roughly be the southern edge of the sea ice sheet at glacial maximum, 18,000 years ago (not very long before Clovis appeared! Coincidence? Naah...). People could WALK from Europe to America. Sure, it would take years and years and years. Generations even, probably.
Impossible? Not really: the Inuit, today, can live their entire lives on the ice without ever touching land. So the Solutreans most probably could too. Their respective technologies and toolsets probably weren't much different! Travel by watercraft would have been the exception, rather than the rule. They 'simply' WALKED!
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Minimalist
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Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
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- Location: Arizona
Impossible? Not really: the Inuit, today, can live their entire lives on the ice without ever touching land. So the Solutreans most probably could too. Their respective technologies and toolsets probably weren't much different! Travel by watercraft would have been the exception, rather than the rule. They 'simply' WALKED!
Yes. Even in 'classical times' it was a rare sailor who stayed at sea at night even in the Mediterranean. They tended to sail in narrow shipping lanes, hugging the coasts and putting ashore for the night. A similar model could explain Pleistocene hunters following game in a kind of hopping motion down the ice floes. It is not at all farfetched.
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Rokcet Scientist
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Minimalist
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Rokcet Scientist
And no ice to walk on!Minimalist wrote:That would be journey of at least three times as far.
However, may I recommend these articles http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtml and http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/carthage-new-world.htm ?
Was there, or wasn't there circumnavigational, GLOBAL trade three or four millennia ago!
Just an interesting little reader for the weekend.
Because if that was possible, surely Khmer Warriors could get to Vera Cruz!
(I'm not saying they did. Just that perhaps they could)
The operative word being 'if', of course.
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rokcet Scientist
Did you take pictures of these people on that trip that you could share with us to illustrate your point, Leona?Leona Conner wrote:[...]Was fortunate to see some of [the Olmecs] on one of my many trips to Mexico, and I thought they were breath-taking. What really caught my attention was that they looked so African.
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Guest
reply
[quote="Rokcet Scientist"]
However, may I recommend these articles http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtml and http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/carthage-new-world.htm ?
Was there, or wasn't there circumnavigational, GLOBAL trade three or four millennia ago!
Just an interesting little reader for the weekend.
[/quote]
There isn't a single [i]verifiable[/i] source quoted in either of those articles, so I'm loathe to do anything else but scoff at them.
However, may I recommend these articles http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtml and http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/carthage-new-world.htm ?
Was there, or wasn't there circumnavigational, GLOBAL trade three or four millennia ago!
Just an interesting little reader for the weekend.
[/quote]
There isn't a single [i]verifiable[/i] source quoted in either of those articles, so I'm loathe to do anything else but scoff at them.
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Minimalist
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however the Bible itself is fairly well proven in historical data
As a matter of fact. archaeologists have shown that the bible is pretty much a load of crap.
Last edited by Minimalist on Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guest
Re: reply
[quote="Rokcet Scientist"]
Try Google, Gordon. You'll be amazed.[/quote]
Why? Google didn't write the article in the first place. The "author" is supposedly a professional journalist, so he supposedly had to meet academic standards to get his qualifications. You don't pepper an article with quotes and references without providing a means for people to go and look them up for themselves, should they feel like it.
Try Google, Gordon. You'll be amazed.[/quote]
Why? Google didn't write the article in the first place. The "author" is supposedly a professional journalist, so he supposedly had to meet academic standards to get his qualifications. You don't pepper an article with quotes and references without providing a means for people to go and look them up for themselves, should they feel like it.