Neanderthal DNA

[Barracuda]

Maybe me!

It is one reason I have been so fascinated by the subject. I am short and stout with very short limbs and a pronounced occipital bun, and can trace my family roots back to a region near the Neander Valley....

[Beagle]

Maybe me!

It is one reason I have been so fascinated by the subject. I am short and stout with very short limbs and a pronounced occipital bun, and can trace my family roots back to a region near the Neander Valley....

And obviously very intelligent. My point all along. Barracuda you should call Trinkaus.

[Beagle]

On a serious note, the Neandertal controversy still rests with genetic science. The problem there is that genetics is still in it's infancy as far as it's ability to decipher the entire genome.

Despite the grand pronouncements that have been made recently, the evidence is based on examining a miniscule portion of the genetic code.

[Barracuda]

Thanks Beagle!

Actually it seems to me that people assume that HSS was more intelligent than Neanderthal just because they survived where Neanderthal did not.

The physical evidence is to the contrary. It seems that Neanderthal had the larger brain.

Even if Neanderthal did vanish without a genetic trace perhaps it was because of an immune issue that had nothing to do with intelligence.

Our "performance measures" for intelligence are based on our own biases.

[Minimalist]

Actually it seems to me that people assume that HSS was more intelligent than Neanderthal just because they survived where Neanderthal did not.

Winners write history...not losers.

[Cognito]

Actually it seems to me that people assume that HSS was more intelligent than Neanderthal just because they survived where Neanderthal did not. The physical evidence is to the contrary. It seems that Neanderthal had the larger brain.

Even if Neanderthal did vanish without a genetic trace perhaps it was because of an immune issue that had nothing to do with intelligence.

Unfortunately, 'Cuda, size doesn't matter much when it comes to the brain (as with other organs). The wiring diagram is far more important. Even though Neanderthals had slightly larger brains, we don't know how their brains were organized internally, or if their cerebral cortexes were less sophisticated than HSS. If they were less cognitive, Neanderthals were at a disadvantage immediately upon coming into contact with HSS because they would fail to "out-think" their new visitors. However, your immune system explanation is more plausable, just ask anyone with native american ancestry.

There is another possibility that I have yet to see raised. From what I understand Neanderthals were generally short-lived compared to HSS. If your average Neanderthal population has a life span of 30 years compared to 50 for HSS, that gives HSS a tremendous advantage over time due to the enhanced cultural diffusion of ideas.

[Minimalist]

Neanderthals survived under harsh conditions for a very long time. Yet, within a few thousand years of contact with HSS they were all gone.

My bet is on a biological agent for which they had no immunity.

[Cognito]

My bet is on a biological agent for which they had no immunity.

That's the most plausable answer. With more study material and examination, we'll likely find out which agents did them in. According to Charles C. Mann in 1491, European diseases wiped out 95% of all Native Americans within the first century after contact. If H. sapiens brought new diseases with them to which Neanderthals had no immunity, they were toast.

[Beagle]

size doesn't matter much when it comes to the brain (as with other organs). The wiring diagram is far more important.

I gotta disagree with that a little bit Cognito.

However you may have meant to say that brain size is important as a relationship to the size of the organism.

Whales, elephants, etc, have larger brains than humans - but not as a per centage of body size.

The wiring is critical, I agree. But there is nothing to suggest that Neandertal was anything but "more" intelligent than early HSS.

I've posted on the old boy many many times in this forum so I don't want to dredge all that up. But maybe we could post some "real" comparisons here. That would be fun.

Let me see what I can come up with for tomorrow.

[Minimalist]

I don't recall where I saw this, Cognito, but I seem to recall that one of the main reasons behind the importation of African slaves to the Americas was the Indians' lack of ability to survive the diseases which the Spanish/Portuguese brought with them. There had always been contact between sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East/Europe - frequently with Arab traders as the middlemen.

[Beagle]

Ya know Min, I have always thought that disease theory that you mention has a lot of merit. That may very well be what happened.

I've looked at too many possibilities to have one I like more than another.

We'll probably never get lucky enough to find a solution to that.

It could be fun to list all the possible reasons that HNS lost out in the competition though.

I'm gonna work up a case for the fellas' intelligence tomorrow though.

[Cognito]

The wiring is critical, I agree. But there is nothing to suggest that Neandertal was anything but "more" intelligent than early HSS.

Beags, I'll try to get my hands on the article or reference, but apparently the Neanderthal cerebral cortex region was not as well developed as HSS even though the total volume was higher. As such, I was referring to quality over quantity since complex thought originates in that area of the brain. At least that's the theory ... but I'm not sure it holds true in California.

[Minimalist]

The thing is, Beags, that it doesn't have to be smallpox or the plague killing them outright.

Something like the flu or measels, hitting a small band with no immunity would only have to put people flat on their backs for a while to start a downward spiral in which there weren't enough hunters sallying forth to feed the group for a short time. If some of them, or the women, died it could have a savage impact on that particular group's long term survival in terms of birth rate.

[Beagle]

The wiring is critical, I agree. But there is nothing to suggest that Neandertal was anything but "more" intelligent than early HSS.

Beags, I'll try to get my hands on the article or reference, but apparently the Neanderthal cerebral cortex region was not as well developed as HSS even though the total volume was higher. As such, I was referring to quality over quantity since complex thought originates in that area of the brain. At least that's the theory ... but I'm not sure it holds true in California.

Sounds good Patrick. I've probably read it though. Importantly I think in this whole thing is that Neandertal had a different braincase. I wrote a long post on that here. So did H. Erectus. So the cerebral cortex simply sat further back. It wasn't absent. That's why the occipital bun. The poor man had to put his brain somewhere.

Anyway, it took a while to evolve past the need for those large brow ridges.

I hear you on the California thing. I was there for two years. During Viet Nam. It may have been nuttier then even.

[Beagle]

The thing is, Beags, that it doesn't have to be smallpox or the plague killing them outright.

Something like the flu or measels, hitting a small band with no immunity would only have to put people flat on their backs for a while to start a downward spiral in which there weren't enough hunters sallying forth to feed the group for a short time. If some of them, or the women, died it could have a savage impact on that particular group's long term survival in terms of birth rate.

Yeah, I agree completely. It wouldn't take much. In fact, over several thousand years, a difference in the fertility rate of 1% would make the difference.