Archaeologica.org

It proves to me that X was here more than 30,000 yrs ago and the x2a is a remnant of that split.

Well, to be exact, X2a, which is what we are talking about in the Americas, isn't found anywhere else, which proves?

That's a fair question, Doug.

1- NAtive American tribes contend that they have always been here. Maybe they are right?

2- Perhaps the X2A population elsewhere in the world was wiped out?

3- Perhaps we are still missing a big piece of this DNA stuff?

Native American tribes contend that they have always been here. Maybe they are right?

Hi Minimalist...

I'm not ready to buy "always been here", but it sure looks like they have been here a hell of a lot longer than we have been led to believe. The American archaeological "establishment" (or "club") has packaged the whole thing into a box containing a reality construct convenient for supporting publications, dissertations, etc. that virtually define an academic's professional identity, evading an uncomfortable reality of the human condition: We live our entire lives assuming certain things to be true, usually unaware that we invariably have failed to see large parts of the "big picture". A true scientist does not summarily dismiss evidence because it is inconsistent with what has already been recognized. And this has caused me some real "culture shock" venturing back into archaeology after many years in research and development for commercial and defense industries. A few years ago, when I presented some obviously human-modified but not typically "Indian" lithic material to a professor who was the principal investigator at a Clovis site in Ohio, he simply told me that archaeologists, as a matter of routine, reject anything that has not already been recognized. Well, that certainly is thought-provoking... If this principle had been applied in, for example, astronomy, electronics, and medicine, things would look a bit different these days, wouldn't they?

Alan

Yeah, Alan, one time when we were having a discussion I went off looking for a web site about Native American legends. That's where I found a site in which it was angrily pointed out that Indian religion has them 'always' being here.

What's odd about it, if you think about it, is that they don't seem to have a tradition of a great journey in any of the myths that remain. They do seem to have traditions of a great flood, though.

The Sioux Creation Myth:

The Creating Power said to himself:“l will sing three songs, which will bring a heavy rain. Then I’ll sing a fourth song and stamp four times on the earth, and the earth will crack wide open. Water will come out of the cracks and cover the land.” When he sang the first song, it started to rain. When he sang the second, it poured. When he sang the third, the rain-swollen rivers overflowed their beds. But when he sang the fourth song and stamped on the earth, it split open in many places like a shattered gourd, and water flowed from the cracks until it covered everything.

Seems an odd sort of thing for a people located in the Dakotas to come up with, doesn't it?

Minimalist wrote:What's odd about it, if you think about it, is that they don't seem to have a tradition of a great journey in any of the myths that remain. They do seem to have traditions of a great flood, though.

Aaaaaggggh! Once again, I can't remember where I saw this, so I'm going to have a look through all my books and notes but...
The Nahua groups of Mexico (Mexica, Chichimec etc.) do have a 'great journey' tradition of having travelled from the north (mythically either Aztlan or Chicomoztoc; linguistically from the SW United States). Whilst rooting around for parallels in related (or distantly related) cultures, I recall a similar tradition amongst... bloody hell... might have been the Hopi... can't remember much beyond it being a parallel and much less specific with the 'origin point' being an otherwise unidentified place in the north. I'm going to have to hit the books for this one but I'm sure it wasn't just the Hopi (if it was them I meant in the first place). Having said that (and assuming I didn't just imagine it) it's true that said tradition seems elusive compared to the flood parallels which seem fairly common. Er... something about originating from the north star... dammit... as a hive of useless information I'm a very, very badly organised hive of useless information. Does this ring any bells with anyone?

Ten minutes later: I think you were probably right, Min. Whatever I remember reading seems to have been an exception.
http://www.indians.org/welker/legend.htm
A quick browse of the above site contains plenty parallels but nothing to support my vague claim, unless you want to interpret the numerous flood stories as allegories for land found after a lengthy sea crossing - although that might be stretching it a bit.

The Creating Power said to himself:“l will sing three songs, which will bring a heavy rain. Then I’ll sing a fourth song and stamp four times on the earth, and the earth will crack wide open. Water will come out of the cracks and cover the land.” When he sang the first song, it started to rain. When he sang the second, it poured. When he sang the third, the rain-swollen rivers overflowed their beds. But when he sang the fourth song and stamped on the earth, it split open in many places like a shattered gourd, and water flowed from the cracks until it covered everything.

Dang, that sounds really close to the flood account in the Hebrew bible's book of Genesis:

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.

17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. , [c] 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
Genesis 7:11-24

Then you have the Book of Mormon, which speaks of a tribe of Israel that took to sea, and landed in North America:

...The Book of Mormon states that there were pre-Columbian peoples that were white, literate, had knowledge of Old World languages, and possessed Old World derived writing systems. (E.g. 1 Nephi 13:23 et. seq.) They smelted metal ( ) and made tools and weapons of iron, steel, and brass. (E.g. Ether 7:9, 10:23) They owned domesticated horses and cattle. They possessed chariots. (E.g. Alma 18:9-12) The people covered the "entire land." The civilization described by these passages and scores of others in the Book of Mormon should yield certain types of discoveries in the pre-Colombian archaeological record. However, few such discoveries have been made...

...Horses are mentioned about a dozen times in the Book of Mormon, and elephants in the Book of Ether....

...the Book of Ether tells of several families that crossed the ocean by the time of the building of the Tower of Babel...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... iron-works

Ha! I promise, I'm not a Mormon. Pretty amazing though, ey?

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear AD. Your experiense echoes mine. After a lifetime of dealing with applied physics it came as a terrible shock to find out that there was nothing more immovable in some disciplines than an 'expert' defending his corner. Somebody once commented that science advances funeral by funeral, and that in general a young Nobel winner never produced any further useful work as he, or she, spent the rest of their lives defending their work. Even Einstein fiddled his work to make it fit accepted dogma, if you're looking for honesty in science you will be disappointed I fear.

Minimalist wrote:

Well, to be exact, X2a, which is what we are talking about in the Americas, isn't found anywhere else, which proves?

That's a fair question, Doug.

1- NAtive American tribes contend that they have always been here. Maybe they are right?

2- Perhaps the X2A population elsewhere in the world was wiped out?

3- Perhaps we are still missing a big piece of this DNA stuff?

Ooohhhh, that's a tough one Min. I guess I'll have take a stab at number 3 though.

Somebody once commented that science advances funeral by funeral

What a great quote, Digit!

Somebody once commented that science advances funeral by funeral.

Or retirement. Either way, it's often true.

O.K., that one goes in the Classics thread.

Hi Digit...

...if you're looking for honesty in science you will be disappointed I fear.

You're right, there are always vested interests, personal agendas, egos, jealousies, etc. But in commercial science, wretched as this tends to be at times, there is at least a relatively immediate accountability in that being wrong about something can have significant financial consequences. In a field like archaeology, someone well established and credentialed can fail to see, or just deny the existence of, something very important but controversial, and the consequences to him/her are likely to be nothing more than a few years of scholarly debate - better than antagonizing one's peers. Rather surprisingly, archaeologists are, on the whole, a very conformistic bunch. I suspect those that are not just don't make it through the curricula.

O.K., that one goes in the Classics thread.
_________________
Charlie Hatchett

Yep. Everyone needs a job around here, Charlie. That job is yours.

Yep. Everyone needs a job around here, Charlie. That job is yours.

Heard from Frank lately?

Some amongst the Chinese have the same flood legend, their hero was called Noh! What do you make of that Min?

There are about 600 versions of the flood myth, worldwide, and those are only from cultures which survived long enough for us to document them. How many more existed from cultures which were obliterated through time?

Trade routes across Eurasia (the Silk Road) can easily explain the flow of ideas back and forth. Less obvious are Native American flood myths which seem to maintain the same general idea in spite of being cut off from Eurasia by two oceans.