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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:45 pm
by Minimalist
Read Josephus.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:35 am
by Forum Monk
I can't believe you're quoting Jospehus as a source. That's good because I may need to use in him myself in some future discussion.
I read Josephus, several years ago, mainly in relation to other histories and in particular Against Apion which deals with pre-roman history.
In general, I will confess some confusion over the Luke 2:2 verse since now I am not sure which greek rendering is 'original'. It seems which ever side needs, produces, a text which supports their view. I will say most texts do translate it "this was the first census when Quirinius..." but some versions do footnote the text and say "this census became the foremost..." or some such wording. Its unfortunate, that I don't know the original, and secondly I don't know an expert in ancient greek. (except perhaps one from another site).
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:53 am
by Minimalist
Tormenting oneself over which particular word an author chose a couple of thousnd years ago is a rather pointless exercise. Language use changes over time. and besides, if "Luke" was a Roman then he was writing in Greek and it was his second language anyway.
Far more important in this case is the political situation: Before Quirinius' term in Syria Judaea had been an independent kingdom which ran its own internal affairs. The Romans maintained that arrangement because it suited them to do so.
Unfortunately Josephus, who I frankly regard as a craven coward and whose writing on his own part of the war can safely be taken with a grain of salt, is the only source we have for much of this stuff. He suffers from the same "lack of scale" as other ancient writers but he is all we have.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:44 am
by Forum Monk
I did have an expert in biblical origins and languages look at the Luke problem. He himself is greek and familiar with ancient greek grammar. His speciality is old testement origins and so is not familiar with the Luke passages. His interpretation adds nothing to support my view although it is somewhat different than the 'standard' interpretation.
"It began in those days that a decree, on behalf of Caeser Augustus, of a record to be made of everyone in the land (or world).
This record (or writing) first began under the reign of Syria's Kirinios.
And everyone went to be recorded everyone in their own cities."
I have to let it go at that for now until anything better comes along.
I will review Josephus and the other historical references this evening.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:31 am
by Minimalist
In the
Res Gestae Divi Augustus (The Deeds of the Divine Augustus) an inscription found in Turkey, Augustus recounts how he three times took a census of Roman citizens.
8. When I was consul the fifth time (29 B.C.E.), I increased the number of patricians by order of the people and senate. I read the roll of the senate three times, and in my sixth consulate (28 B.C.E.) I made a census of the people with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague. I conducted a lustrum, after a forty-one year gap, in which lustrum were counted 4,063,000 heads of Roman citizens. Then again, with consular imperium I conducted a lustrum alone when Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius were consuls (8 B.C.E.), in which lustrum were counted 4,233,000 heads of Roman citizens. And the third time, with consular imperium, I conducted a lustrum with my son Tiberius Caesar as colleague, when Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Appuleius were consuls (14 A.C.E.), in which lustrum were cunted 4,937,000 of the heads of Roman citizens. By new laws passed with my sponsorship, I restored many traditions of the ancestors, which were falling into disuse in our age, and myself I handed on precedents of many things to be imitated in later generations.
28 BC, 8 BC and 14 AD are not much help and besides, no one ever claimed that Jesus or any of his family were Roman citizens so this would have had no impact on them.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:34 pm
by Digit
I don't know about being Roman citizens Min, I'm still trying to get some people to accept that Jesus was a Jew!
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:42 pm
by Forum Monk
Digit wrote:I don't know about being Roman citizens Min, I'm still trying to get some people to accept that Jesus was a Jew!
Christians are only now, starting to remember that fact, after centuries of persecution of jews by christians, christians are now supporting jewish interests. (Though the motive for this 'love of Israel' is questionable, IMO.)
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:07 pm
by Digit
At a political level Monk it's necessary to differentiate between Jews and Zionists. Not all Jews support what is happening in Israel, but if you check how how the Arab states treated their Jewish minorities before dumping them on Israel you'll begin to understand how the present unhappy situations arose.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:37 pm
by Minimalist
Digit wrote:I don't know about being Roman citizens Min, I'm still trying to get some people to accept that Jesus was a Jew!
"Only on his mother's side!"
-- Archie Bunker c. 1968
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:56 pm
by Minimalist
Forum Monk wrote:Digit wrote:I don't know about being Roman citizens Min, I'm still trying to get some people to accept that Jesus was a Jew!
Christians are only now, starting to remember that fact, after centuries of persecution of jews by christians, christians are now supporting jewish interests. (Though the motive for this 'love of Israel' is questionable, IMO.)
YOu mean like this?
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0519-05.htm
Consider the following quotation from the Web site of Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network, a strong supporter of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's recent actions: "Indeed, there will finally be such a fullness of Israel when their hardness and blindness to the gospel is overcome as to vastly enrich the whole world. For the almost unbelievable truth is that all Israel will be saved. The fullness of Gentiles will climax with the fullness of Israel." It's hard to believe that this vision of an Israel in which all the Jews convert to Christianity is compatible with the vision for Israel held by most Jews.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:36 pm
by Forum Monk
Good 'ole Pat Robertson. Christians believe they are part of the body of Christ. I wonder at times, which part he is.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:01 pm
by Minimalist
I wonder at times, which part he is.
That's easy.
He's the Right Nut.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:06 pm
by Leona Conner
Digit wrote:I don't know about being Roman citizens Min, I'm still trying to get some people to accept that Jesus was a Jew!
I didn't know that Wales had a "Bible Belt." Here in the south the good Baptists will not only refuse to accept that he was a Jew, but don't touch on the fact that they were in Jerusalem to celebrate Passover or that the Last Supper was actually a Seder. To quote a friend, "Jesus was the first Christian, that is why he called himself Christ." Now THAT'S scary.
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:39 pm
by Minimalist
Why don't you tell them that "Christ" is really a Greek word?
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:28 pm
by ravenwing5910
Minimalist wrote:I wonder at times, which part he is.
That's easy.
He's the Right Nut.
I would think a little higer and in the back.