Archaeologica.org

[quote="bp
I'm wandering what you can tell us....please do not discuss things that you are not involved in. All that you can do from Texas is to assume how things are done Bosnia...Things like 'as far as I can say'...you can use somewhere else, not here not to accuse hard working Bosnians on the site...because you assume from the pictures that you saw...maybe if you look more...maybe will find more pictures...It's pathetic that you artrying to judge excavations from the images not from the hard evidence on the site.
Do not expect that everything is published on the internet. There are so many things happening every day over here ... some image to show you how things are done...even If we give you an image you will say...angle is not good and so on...maybe image will not be real....u will say It's fake...since you already judging things ...because do not fit into things that you learn from the books....

http://www.bosnianpyramid.com/images/We ... dofSun.jpg





bp[/quote]

So you're saying that since I'm not there I have no right to an opinion based on what I've seen? Then why are any of you posting anything here if it isn't for discussion? You're saying I don't know the whole story, well then post some information if you know it. Otherwise I will continue, as I have, to voice my opinion. You can take it or leave it. It seems to me that people who are secure in their knowledge wouldn't be so defensive and quick to anger. In other words you would'nt get so mad unless you thought I might be right and that thought frightened you. So flame at me all you like. It just means I'm touching a nerve.

As for the dig, I don't want to stop it nor could I do so. I'm merely pointing out what I have observed. True enough I'm not there. If you, bp, or you stellarchaser are there then fill us in. It isn't my place to tell you what to do, but I will offer my opinion. I will also help in any way that I am able. Don't be offended by me. I'm just voicing an opinion and if yours is different then by all means voice your opinion as well. None of us here hold any ill will towards the people of Bosnia. I know there is something on those hills, but I doubt that it's as weird as Os is saying. Of course that's only my opinion.

Katherine Reece wrote:

stellarchaser wrote: I can't expalin, because I'm not good in mathematics, but Lepenski Vir architecture used mathematical method discovered in 18th century AD. I'll find more and let you know.

LOL !! You'll be the blind leading the blind then ... I abhor mathematics.

I have read that they were familar with geology and laid their homes out accordingly. But that doesn't get us to any monumental architecture constructed by them.

I'd be happy to read whatever you can find however, English language resources can be hard to come by.

I'm really bad at mathematics, but they used some very complex mathematic methods in their architestructure. One of them was discovered in 18th century AD, but I can't just remember which. But I'll try to get for you english explanations.

They didn't have monumental architecture because they've been situated on river bank, i.e. between river and canyon walls. So there was so little space for such architecture. But they used those complex mathematical methods of which I'll inform you soon.

I'm really bad at mathematics, but they used some very complex mathematic methods in their architestructure. One of them was discovered in 18th century AD, but I can't just remember which. But I'll try to get for you english explanations.

Feel free to keep it simple (so I can understand it!)

They didn't have monumental architecture because they've been situated on river bank, i.e. between river and canyon walls. So there was so little space for such architecture. But they used those complex mathematical methods of which I'll inform you soon.

If they had a reason to build it they could have done it close by in another spot though. I'm trying to remember how they buried their dead. I seem to recall something about fireplaces (?) but I think that was only for certain members of the group?

Too much history and too few brain cells !!

I wonder too why they stayed in that particular spot ... didn't they get flooded out often?

Frank Harrist wrote:[quote="bp
I'm wandering what you can tell us....please do not discuss things that you are not involved in. All that you can do from Texas is to assume how things are done Bosnia...Things like 'as far as I can say'...you can use somewhere else, not here not to accuse hard working Bosnians on the site...because you assume from the pictures that you saw...maybe if you look more...maybe will find more pictures...It's pathetic that you artrying to judge excavations from the images not from the hard evidence on the site.
Do not expect that everything is published on the internet. There are so many things happening every day over here ... some image to show you how things are done...even If we give you an image you will say...angle is not good and so on...maybe image will not be real....u will say It's fake...since you already judging things ...because do not fit into things that you learn from the books....

http://www.bosnianpyramid.com/images/We ... dofSun.jpg





bp

So you're saying that since I'm not there I have no right to an opinion based on what I've seen? Then why are any of you posting anything here if it isn't for discussion? You're saying I don't know the whole story, well then post some information if you know it. Otherwise I will continue, as I have, to voice my opinion. You can take it or leave it. It seems to me that people who are secure in their knowledge wouldn't be so defensive and quick to anger. In other words you would'nt get so mad unless you thought I might be right and that thought frightened you. So flame at me all you like. It just means I'm touching a nerve.

As for the dig, I don't want to stop it nor could I do so. I'm merely pointing out what I have observed. True enough I'm not there. If you, bp, or you stellarchaser are there then fill us in. It isn't my place to tell you what to do, but I will offer my opinion. I will also help in any way that I am able. Don't be offended by me. I'm just voicing an opinion and if yours is different then by all means voice your opinion as well. None of us here hold any ill will towards the people of Bosnia. I know there is something on those hills, but I doubt that it's as weird as Os is saying. Of course that's only my opinion.[/quote]

Everybody is entitled to an opinion Frank. But there is a way to say it. Some of you said that Osmanagich is a froad and a thief, but he's doing his job volontarily. He migh be, and he might be not right about pyramids. His statesments are weird for some people, but that's the life. Many of you say excavations are incorrect, but none has said: those people need help. And when we say: come to Bosnia, sceptical as you can be, help with your knowledge, you say: Osmanagich wouldn't let us work there. That is not truth.

instead of constructive suggestions, people writting letters, without knowing what they are signing. bosnian goverment asked UNESCO to come with expert team, and Mr. Rose sending letter to UNESCO asking them not to come. How we can interpret that other than hostile act? And provoked by what?

Katherine Reece wrote:

I'm really bad at mathematics, but they used some very complex mathematic methods in their architestructure. One of them was discovered in 18th century AD, but I can't just remember which. But I'll try to get for you english explanations.

Feel free to keep it simple (so I can understand it!)

They didn't have monumental architecture because they've been situated on river bank, i.e. between river and canyon walls. So there was so little space for such architecture. But they used those complex mathematical methods of which I'll inform you soon.

If they had a reason to build it they could have done it close by in another spot though. I'm trying to remember how they buried their dead. I seem to recall something about fireplaces (?) but I think that was only for certain members of the group?

Too much history and too few brain cells !!

I wonder too why they stayed in that particular spot ... didn't they get flooded out often?

Bellow is quick search from Wikipedia, but I will find far more for you. This is just for first help

"Seven successive settlements were discovered on Lepenski Vir site with remains of 136 residential and sacral buildings dating from 6500 BC to 5500 BC.

All the settlements follow the shape of the underlying terrain, a horseshoe shaped plateau. Settlements always face the direction of the river which was the obvious focus of life for its inhabitants. The basic layout of the settlement consists of two separate wings and a wide empty central space which served the purpose of a village square or meeting place. The settlement is radially divided with numerous pathways leading to the edge of the river. The outer edges of the village are parallel to the surrounding cliffs.

Domestic objects represent the transition from tent structure to house. All the houses share a very distinct shape, built according to a complicated geometric pattern. The basis of each of the houses is a circle segment of exactly 60 degrees constructing in the manner of an equilateral triangle. This unique layout demonstrates the level of mathematical and geometric knowledge of inhabitants of Lepenski Vir. The peculiar choice of equilateral triangle as a basis instead of the more common round or rectangular form suggests significance of numbers in the lives of the settlement's inhabitants.

The interior of each house includes a fireplace in form of elongated rectangle placed on the long axis of the floorplan. These fireplaces were built from massive rectangular stone blocks. The fireplaces are further extended with stone block to create some kind of a small shrine in the back of the house. These shrines were always decorated with sculptures carved from massive round river stones and represent perhaps river gods or ancestors. Another significant feature of the houses is a shallow circular depression in the ground placed precisely in the exact middle. This perhaps represents some kind of an altar."

By the way Stellarchaser .... if you post and I don't reply please (if you can) drop me a quick email at kat@hallofmaat.com ...

I may not see your post... pages go by pretty quickly here.

Katherine Reece wrote:By the way Stellarchaser .... if you post and I don't reply please (if you can) drop me a quick email at kat@hallofmaat.com ...

I may not see your post... pages go by pretty quickly here.

Ok, it's always pleasure to talk to you

and another small piece from Wikipedia:

It is assumed that the people of Lepenski Vir culture represent the descendants of the early European population of the Brno-Psedmost hunter gatherer culture from the end of the last ice age. Archeological evidence of human habitation surrounding caves dates back to around 20,000 BC. The first settlement on the low plateau dates back to 7000 BC, a time when climate become significantly warmer.

Katherine Reece wrote:

I'm really bad at mathematics, but they used some very complex mathematic methods in their architestructure. One of them was discovered in 18th century AD, but I can't just remember which. But I'll try to get for you english explanations.

Feel free to keep it simple (so I can understand it!)

They didn't have monumental architecture because they've been situated on river bank, i.e. between river and canyon walls. So there was so little space for such architecture. But they used those complex mathematical methods of which I'll inform you soon.

If they had a reason to build it they could have done it close by in another spot though. I'm trying to remember how they buried their dead. I seem to recall something about fireplaces (?) but I think that was only for certain members of the group?

Too much history and too few brain cells !!

I wonder too why they stayed in that particular spot ... didn't they get flooded out often?

I'm trying to remember how they buried their dead.

They buried their dead in same position as oldest inhabitants of Jericho did it. In fetus position.

I assure you, Stellar, I am not hostile. If I were a proffesional and could afford it I would come over there and offer to help. I've been here on this forum offering my opinion for a couple years now and no one has ever taken offense as badly as bp. Most of us come here to be informed and to discuss. We don't always agree, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to discuss. My opinion of Osmamagic is admittedly low, but it's ONLY MY OPINION and I have a right to that. I would be very happy if there were pyramids there, but not too happy if they destroyed everything that lies above them just to get to them and prove their point. I don't know that that is happening. Someone tell me that isn't happenning. I hope it isn't. It really doesn't affect me one way or the other, but as a citizen of the world and an interested member of the archaeological community I do feel I have some stake in it. I wish the Boznian people luck and as I stated before I hold no ill will towards them or anyone, even Osmamagich. He seems like a nice guy, but his theories do erode his credibility. But then again, I've had some pretty far out theories myself. It's just that no one has ever let me take on a project of this scope. That's a good thing.

Frank Harrist wrote:I assure you, Stellar, I am not hostile. If I were a proffesional and could afford it I would come over there and offer to help. I've been here on this forum offering my opinion for a couple years now and no one has ever taken offense as badly as bp. Most of us come here to be informed and to discuss. We don't always agree, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to discuss. My opinion of Osmamagic is admittedly low, but it's ONLY MY OPINION and I have a right to that. I would be very happy if there were pyramids there, but not too happy if they destroyed everything that lies above them just to get to them and prove their point. I don't know that that is happening. Someone tell me that isn't happenning. I hope it isn't. It really doesn't affect me one way or the other, but as a citizen of the world and an interested member of the archaeological community I do feel I have some stake in it. I wish the Boznian people luck and as I stated before I hold no ill will towards them or anyone, even Osmamagich. He seems like a nice guy, but his theories do erode his credibility. But then again, I've had some pretty far out theories myself. It's just that no one has ever let me take on a project of this scope. That's a good thing.

Believe me Frank, if I would find out that they destroying artefacts in order to get what they want by all cocts, I would be first who would sream. And I would scream loudly.

As for opinions, everyone is entitled to one, and there's a saying in Bosnia: "Two heads are always smarter than one head." And that's why came I here to see other opinions and even to learn something. And to share my thoughts. By let's do it civilized manner, and not to throw bad words at each other.

stellarchaser wrote:

Frank Harrist wrote:I assure you, Stellar, I am not hostile. If I were a proffesional and could afford it I would come over there and offer to help. I've been here on this forum offering my opinion for a couple years now and no one has ever taken offense as badly as bp. Most of us come here to be informed and to discuss. We don't always agree, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to discuss. My opinion of Osmamagic is admittedly low, but it's ONLY MY OPINION and I have a right to that. I would be very happy if there were pyramids there, but not too happy if they destroyed everything that lies above them just to get to them and prove their point. I don't know that that is happening. Someone tell me that isn't happenning. I hope it isn't. It really doesn't affect me one way or the other, but as a citizen of the world and an interested member of the archaeological community I do feel I have some stake in it. I wish the Boznian people luck and as I stated before I hold no ill will towards them or anyone, even Osmamagich. He seems like a nice guy, but his theories do erode his credibility. But then again, I've had some pretty far out theories myself. It's just that no one has ever let me take on a project of this scope. That's a good thing.

Believe me Frank, if I would find out that they destroying artefacts in order to get what they want by all cocts, I would be first who would sream. And I would scream loudly.

As for opinions, everyone is entitled to one, and there's a saying in Bosnia: "Two heads are always smarter than one head." And that's why came I here to see other opinions and even to learn something. And to share my thoughts. By let's do it civilized manner, and not to throw bad words at each other.

I never attacked anyone here personally. I was attacked by a couple, but I'm willing to forget about it. I'll try to tone down my Os remarks if it will keep everyone from getting their bood pressure up. I never thought my opinion was worth enough to get everyone so upset. I'll make a deal with ya'll. Supply us with as much information as you can and I'll do whatever I can to help. Also, if you'd send me a plane ticket I'd come over and help.
Stellar, have you been to the site? Has anyone here been to the site and can tell us how things are being done? I'd be interested in knowing what methods are being used. We keep getting pics, but not very good ones. I am not being sarcastic and I have no malice towards anyone here, I'm just curious. I'm getting most of my info here.

"Two heads are always smarter than one head."

Hmmm..... Obviously you people have little experience with Congressional Committees or you wouldn't say that.

Frank Harrist wrote:

stellarchaser wrote:

Frank Harrist wrote:I assure you, Stellar, I am not hostile. If I were a proffesional and could afford it I would come over there and offer to help. I've been here on this forum offering my opinion for a couple years now and no one has ever taken offense as badly as bp. Most of us come here to be informed and to discuss. We don't always agree, otherwise there wouldn't be anything to discuss. My opinion of Osmamagic is admittedly low, but it's ONLY MY OPINION and I have a right to that. I would be very happy if there were pyramids there, but not too happy if they destroyed everything that lies above them just to get to them and prove their point. I don't know that that is happening. Someone tell me that isn't happenning. I hope it isn't. It really doesn't affect me one way or the other, but as a citizen of the world and an interested member of the archaeological community I do feel I have some stake in it. I wish the Boznian people luck and as I stated before I hold no ill will towards them or anyone, even Osmamagich. He seems like a nice guy, but his theories do erode his credibility. But then again, I've had some pretty far out theories myself. It's just that no one has ever let me take on a project of this scope. That's a good thing.

Believe me Frank, if I would find out that they destroying artefacts in order to get what they want by all cocts, I would be first who would sream. And I would scream loudly.

As for opinions, everyone is entitled to one, and there's a saying in Bosnia: "Two heads are always smarter than one head." And that's why came I here to see other opinions and even to learn something. And to share my thoughts. By let's do it civilized manner, and not to throw bad words at each other.

I never attacked anyone here personally. I was attacked by a couple, but I'm willing to forget about it. I'll try to tone down my Os remarks if it will keep everyone from getting their bood pressure up. I never thought my opinion was worth enough to get everyone so upset. I'll make a deal with ya'll. Supply us with as much information as you can and I'll do whatever I can to help. Also, if you'd send me a plane ticket I'd come over and help.
Stellar, have you been to the site? Has anyone here been to the site and can tell us how things are being done? I'd be interested in knowing what methods are being used. We keep getting pics, but not very good ones. I am not being sarcastic and I have no malice towards anyone here, I'm just curious. I'm getting most of my info here.

Unfortunatelly, I haven't been there, but I'm planning to go there in next few weeks. Like you, I'm getting only bad photographs that tell nothing. I want to see things with my own eyes.

I know that there are few archeologists there, and I believe they do their job properly. Those are nice young people. And something that nobody ever noticed here: when any of the archeologists from excavations ever went to media speaking about pyramid? They are scientists, and they know their job and how things work.

We get few more informations from other media (TV, radio) but we are trying to post it all here. Everything would be different if some independent expert team would be on the ground. Anthony harding easily could have arrange that with Visoko museum, if only had visited them.

And I'm very happy that you're citizen of the world. I always enjoy company of such people.

http://piramide.jahu.net/piramide.php/2006/06/29

It's late in Bosnia I know, but can anyone translate what it says under the top picture on this page?

It's a new pic and it looks like it could be a corner.

I wish that website was available in English.

stellarchaser wrote: It is assumed that the people of Lepenski Vir culture represent the descendants of the early European population of the Brno-Psedmost hunter gatherer culture from the end of the last ice age. Archeological evidence of human habitation surrounding caves dates back to around 20,000 BC. The first settlement on the low plateau dates back to 7000 BC, a time when climate become significantly warmer.

Holding the information above for just a minute lets look at what each **pyramid** building culture or civilization has in common. For the purpose of this discussion I suggest we do not include North American Native American mounds as these are not lithic constructions.

Every pyramid building civilization has the following in common:

1 A large enough population to pull workers for pyramid construction without harming the economy or subsistence of the group.

2 A food supply that is plentiful enough to maintain a surplus. In every culture except the Peruvian this food supply is agriculture. In Peru the food supply is fish. Fish could not be the answer for other civilizations as Peru is unique in the world where its fishery is concerned. (See Michael Moseley’s “Maritime Foundation of Andean Civilization)

3 Some sort of central unifying control governmental or religious in nature.

I'm sure there are other features (art etc) but a surplus food supply and central control are the biggies. Of those two for the purposes of this argument agriculture is really the biggie, one charasmatic man can after all accomplish quite a lot.

As near as I can recall agriculture in the area has not been proven until the Vinca .. so that's 5,000 BC. If the soil from the excavation areas is not being saved, sifted, and floated then you’re not going to be able to prove what sort of foods the people were consuming and you're not going to be able to prove that they were growing their own crops. Agriculture at 12,000 years ago advanced enough to supply the kind of surplus needed to feed an army of pyramid workers is going to be *very* difficult to prove anyway.

Was Agriculture Impossible during the Pleistocene but Mandatory during the Holocene? A Climate Change Hypothesis
Peter J. Richerson, Robert Boyd, Robert L. Bettinger
American Antiquity, Vol. 66, No. 3 (Jul., 2001) , pp. 387-411

Abstract:

Several independent trajectories of subsistence intensification, often leading to agriculture, began during the Holocene. No plant-rich intensifications are known from the Pleistocene, even from the late Pleistocene when human populations were otherwise quite sophisticated. Recent data from ice and ocean-core climate proxies show that last glacial climates were extremely hostile to agriculture-dry, low in atmospheric CO2 and extremely variable on quite short time scales. We hypothesize that agriculture was impossible under last-glacial conditions. The quite abrupt final amelioration of the climate was followed immediately by the beginnings of plant-intensive resource-use strategies in some areas, although the turn to plants was much later elsewhere. Almost all trajectories of subsistence intensification in the Holocene are progressive, and eventually agriculture became the dominant strategy in all but marginal environments. We hypothesize that, in the Holocene, agriculture was, in the long run, compulsory. We use a mathematical analysis to argue that the rate-limiting process for intensification trajectories must generally be the rate of innovation of subsistence technology or subsistence-related social organization. At the observed rates of innovation, population growth will always be rapid enough to sustain a high level of population pressure. Several processes appear to retard rates of cultural evolution below the maxima we observe in the most favorable cases.


12,000 years ago is right on the line of when agriculture was possible according to this paper. I don’t see how you can have advances almost immediately that would create an agricultural system that could produce the surplus needed.

Everything I’ve read on the area doesn’t lead me to believe there was a large enough population for this type of pyramid construction either.

I'm not contesting that there were people in the area 20,000 years ago.