Oh Christ!!

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:13 pm

Witness to what?

ravenwing5910 · Post by **ravenwing5910** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:09 pm

you two make for very interesting reading. I recently dropped a class in Near Eastern Religions that shortly turned into a bible thumping session. I find your discussion much more educational.

But it does seem that the two of you are arguing the same points just from different perspectives, (sort of like 4 other guys may have done a couple thousand years ago)

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:35 pm

You should have been here for Arch!

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:19 am

Educational???

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:31 am

I'll have you know, Min and I are both very educated. In my case, I'm just not sure if any it comes out.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:33 am

Monk is a far more worthy opponent than Arch.

Arch was too ready to fall back on "magic" to support his positions.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:56 am

Pistols at dawn is it Min?

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:59 am

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:13 pm

Someday, I have to read this book.

Caesar's Messiah, a real life Da Vinci Code, presents the dramatic and controversial discovery that the conventional views of Christian origins may be wrong. Author Joseph Atwill makes the case that the Christian Gospels were actually written under the direction of first-century Roman emperors. The purpose of these texts was to establish a peaceful Jewish sect to counterbalance the militaristic Jewish forces that had just been defeated by the Roman Emperor Titus in 70 A.D.
Atwill uncovered the secret key to this story in the writings of Josephus, the famed first-century Roman historian. Reading Josephus's chronicle, The War of the Jews, the author found detail after detail that closely paralleled events recounted in the Gospels.

Atwill skillfully demonstrates that the emperors used the Gospels to spark a new religious movement that would aid them in maintaining power and order. What's more, by including hidden literary clues, they took the story of the Emperor Titus's glorious military victory, as recounted by Josephus, and embedded that story in the Gospels - a sly and satirical way of glorifying the emperors through the ages.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:39 pm

Min, these extremist theories, like that book review, make the Bible seem, by comparison, to be as true as the fundies say it is.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:58 pm

What's funny about that, personally, is that 35 years ago during a dorm discussion on religion in college, I essentially came up with the same theory off the top of my head.

As I recall, there was a gospel literalist on the other side whining about all the facts that supported Jesus' existence. There were no more facts then than there are now so I drew on a few facts of my own and came up with the theory that having just spent 3 years suppressing the revolt they came up with a non-aggressive form of Judaism to replace the version that had caused so much trouble.

Anyway, based on the facts that the earliest gospels date to around 70ad, and that the Flavian dynasty had extensively campaigned in the region and needed peace after a long period of civil war and fiscal mismanagement by Nero, I suggested that christianity, as laid out in the gospels, would have been the perfect religion for an Imperial power.
I missed the Josephus connection because I had not read him at that point.

Damn.

I should have copyrighted the idea!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:14 pm

OK, so the whole religion was made up. The stories of early Christian persecutions and executions - were they fabricated also?

Time for me to quit, but I think this book isn't going to make a lot of money. The Jesus Plot from quite a few years ago had a ton of convoluted reasoning but this one seems to be out of the ballpark.

Thanks for the "house tour".

I wish I had a house like that.
Later.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:57 pm

OK, so the whole religion was made up.

Hmmm.....aren't all the others just made up? Why is it so hard to consider the possibility that your own has no more basis in reality than ________________ (fill in the blank.)

The stories of early Christian persecutions and executions - were they fabricated also?

There is a distinct possibility that they are 'overstated.'

ravenwing5910 · Post by **ravenwing5910** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:07 am

Minimalist wrote:
OK, so the whole religion was made up.

Hmmm.....aren't all the others just made up? Why is it so hard to consider the possibility that your own has no more basis in reality than ________________ (fill in the blank.)

I agree Min. I have wondered since I was a child in Catholic school, why Zeus and Thor are myths but God is truth. Needless to say the Nuns couldn't give me a satisfactory answer.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:20 am

Which one of you is willing to die for the fact the Roman Emperors had Christianity fabricated to create a better Pax Romana? And yet if you support these kinds of claims you are in effect saying, thousands if not millions through the centuries have willingly died to perpetuate a lie. Persecution, in the arena is only one many kinds of martyrdom suffered by Christians, even to this day. This kind of faith does not come from belief in a heavenly reward, nor is it learned in religious school nor are you born with it, nor do you learn it from your parents nor does it come from fearing death and hell. It is not incense, candles, broken bread, sign of the cross, ritualistic prayer, genuflecting, tithing, baptism, etc. as these are only outward signs or symbols and ones few would die for. It is something internal when a person encounters God and his life is forever changed. It is rare and deeply personal and it is unmistakeable. When it happens one is now ready to face the lions rather than say it is a lie.

I suggest the topic stick with "real" history and or archaeological evidence as these made-up suppositions and speculations are designed to stir controversey in the hopes of selling books. Otherwise let us post the same kind of indictments against Islamism, Budddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, etc. and let us be willing to allow alternative points of view. If we want to debate these things, fine. But let us do so openly without fear of being banned, ridiculed, flamed, or slandered. But unless the code of conduct for this board is changed, such debate can not be conducted equally and fairly.