Archaeologica.org

Yep! But it's probably treatable Min!

Heaven forbid.....I have to stay this way until Obama is elected!

Meanwhile....there remains the problem of the Neanderthal Spears.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A961958260

Most experts thought that such big-game hunting did not begin until 40,000 years ago; before that, in their opinion, human ancestors were probably opportunistic scavengers of meat and foragers of plants.

But the three wooden spears appear definitely to have been designed for hunting big game, Dr. Thieme and other experts said. Each one, an average of six feet long and two inches in maximum diameter, was carved from the trunk of a spruce tree. A sharp tip was carved at the base of the trunk, where the wood is hardest.

The center of gravity, or balance point, of each spear is almost exactly one-third of the way from the point, which suggests that these were weapons designed to be thrown at a large animal. Since they are heavy and were made with care along the same aerodynamic lines as a modern javelin, experts said, it is unlikely the spears would have been thrown at the occasional squirrel. Instead, they said, these people were after bigger game and investing considerable thought and time into the hunt.

Sure as hell seems like someone had some advanced ideas, doesn't it?

As I pointed out some days ago Min, once man began hunting, as opposed to scavenging, he had little choice but to go for the large, slow, animals. With that decision weapon development had to follow, it was as inevitable as night following day.

Not according to the "Neanderthals are dimwits" crowd.

Digit wrote:As I pointed out some days ago Min, once man began hunting, as opposed to scavenging, he had little choice but to go for the large, slow, animals. With that decision weapon development had to follow, it was as inevitable as night following day.

Maybe it was the other way around, Digit.

Perhaps advances in weapons tech made big game hunting feasible.

Think about those whalers on the other thread. Do you think they decided to hunt whales and then over time developed harpoons and boats?

Maybe whalers found one washed up on shore and took a taste? Then, they had to figure out what it took to kill one.

In either case, it seems unlikely that a creature with an IQ of 6 figured it out.

Neanderthals' precursor was H. Heiderlbergensis. He was in Europe by at least 700,000 BC. It seems reasonable that he journeyed there from Africa by following migrating game herds. So he probably already had formidable weapons at that time.

And to live in Europe during the winter, he must have had fire at that time also.

Beagle wrote:...And to live in Europe during the winter, he must have had fire at that time also.

Perhaps, but if he followed migrating herds, those herds would have been in warmer environs, during the ice age winters.

Going back to 700,000 BC there must have been long interglacial periods?

Yes, from 100,000 to 150,000 years on average.

You could be right Monk but I don't see it that way.
I think it pretty sure that meat eating began with scavenging. This lead to, or was made possible, by the stone knife.
These were in use long before hunting seems to have come on the scene, now a member of a H/G group normally shares his kill, it appears to be part of the social structure of H/G groups. To make that worthwhile there has to be sufficient meat, that means a large enough animal/corpse.
Having got to that stage they are left with traps, nets, pit falls etc. To progres from there somebody has to come up with the spear.
To provide a decent steak for a H/G group of say, 30 people would seem to require at least a small Deer as the prey.
Even to use a spear requires you to get pretty close, but cutting its throat with a stone knife could be a bit like human sacrifice I feel.

Maybe it was the other way around, Digit. Perhaps advances in weapons tech made big game hunting feasible.

Monk, that's probably a chicken and egg question. The first use for stone tools as evidenced from ancient sites was for food and animal processing (including hides, meat, etc.), wood cutting, and so on. The first spears were apparently similar to those 400,000 year old javelins found in Germany. A fire-hardened point could penetrate quite well. However, if someone was throwing handaxes at critters, it's not too difficult to figure that they can be attached to the end of a spear and do some damage. That requires twine and glue, which was already available.

The entire survival scheme at that remote time fascinates me -- I wonder how long you and I could last in that environment?

About six seconds after that thing decided you looked like lunch.

Don't bet on it Min, I'm bloody fast when pushed, make that about, oooh 10 secs!

The entire survival scheme at that remote time fascinates me

Likewise Cog. Some of my ideas, right or wrong, are based on imagining myself alive at that time. How would I handle it? How would I make such and such?
Bring on time travel!

oooh 10 secs!

Wow. Four extra seconds of running. Great.