Philo's guide to decoding the Hebrew Bible

The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.

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Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Thank you John. Your link provides such a good explanation of the Eleusinian rites that I feel compelled to copy some of it to here, but do suggest reading the whole thing here: http://www.witchesway.net/links/elusinian.html

This article was originally published in Alexandria: The Journal for the Western Cosmological Traditions, volume 2 (1993), pp. 63-95.


ELEUSIS was a small bay city approximately fifteen miles northwest of Athens. Beginning as early as the fifteenth century BCE, an agricultural cult of the goddess Demeter is associated with the location. It is this provincial fertility cult which grew in Hellenistic times to become the most important of the mysteria megale, the great mystery religions. Noted historian Walter Burkert explains that these mysteries were not religious bodies apart from the wider context of ancient paganism, but rather were tangential and supplemental for those who desired them. "Mysteries," he says, "were initiation rituals of a voluntary, personal, and secret character that aimed at a change of mind through experience of the sacred."[1]

Scholars have long held considerable interest in these mysteries: of Dionysos, Orpheus, Mithras, Cybele, and Isis; but none quite so much as those of the goddess Demeter and her daughter Persephone, celebrated before thousands of initiates every fall in ancient Greece. Although we know that the Eleusinian Mysteries profoundly impressed those who experienced them, modern scholarship has struggled for well over a century to explain why the secret rites within the sanctuary were so compelling and convincing to so many people of varied background and sophistication. The curiosity with which classical scholars approach this problem has not diminished to the present day.

The Eleusinian rites were just as compelling in the pagan world and were highly respected and revered. Pausanias tells us they were held in superiority to all other religious functions "as gods are higher than heroes."[2] It was, of course, forbidden to disclose the secrets of the initiations--those who did faced exile or death [3] -- and so our sources for reconstructing the events are sometimes sparse or questionable.

Accepting this limitation, we may proceed to examine what facts remain available. We have as our sources not only literary testimonies, but the architectural and artistic remains from the site and elsewhere. George Mylonas, who performed a complete archaeological survey of the site four decades ago, confronted the whole of this data and was both confident and frustrated: "We cannot know, at least we still do not know, what was the full content and meaning of the Mysteries of Demeter held at Eleusis. We know the details of the ritual but not its meaning."[4] We can describe with some degree of confidence both the order of events and even--in certain limited cases--the acts performed.

The oldest and most fundamental source related to the Eleusinia is the Homeric Hymn to Demeter,[5] probably composed in the seventh century BCE, which records the sacred story or hieros logos of the cult. The Hymn contains the mythic kernel of the Eleusinian religion and provides important clues about the rites......
It then goes into more detail about the rites which make for some fascinating reading.
Forum Monk
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Post by Forum Monk »

seeker wrote: Personally I think FM is doing the equivalent of covering his ears and shouting "La La La" in regards to this argument so the more people bashing him over the head with it the better. Until he realizes that his 'interpretations' of the text are really centuries of Christian apologia designed specifically to obscure the meaning of the plain text no one person will get through to him.
Rarely is history cut and dry, it is subject to interpretation and if there is one thing I have learned over the years, the interpretation never is certain. Even within my lifetime I see attempts to change history that I have personally witnessed.

I don't shy away from controversial subjects and often enjoy playing the devil's advocate. There are usually two sides to every issue and it can be interesting to explore them. Sometimes, people can look at prevailing evidence in new ways and reach different conclusions.

Somewhere along the line this has ceased to be discussion. Its an argument and apparently for some a crusade. Too bad.
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Forum Monk wrote:
Somewhere along the line this has ceased to be discussion. Its an argument and apparently for some a crusade. Too bad.
FM, you make the mistake of the American in London who comments that everyone he meets has an English accent.

You accuse people here who go to lengths to present evidence of why they disagree with your version of history as having an agenda or being on a crusade, as if the Christian church in all its 2,000 years history never had an agenda or went on crusades- and that the belief in a historical Jesus just happened naturally because sensible people like you saw the truth.

You need to wake up, mon ami!

If I am fighting a well-armed warrior, I need a sword. And so yes, I have an agenda ... in the form of a sword, forged by a wordsmith to cut through all the bullshit of 2,000 years ....and I intend to use it. :D

If you want a circular, drawing room discussion that never reaches any conclusions, so that you don't have to confront anything uncomfortable that will cause you make changes in your thinking, you've come to wrong place.
Forum Monk wrote:
I ... often enjoy playing the devil's advocate.
Well, you said it! :lol:
seeker
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Post by seeker »

Forum Monk wrote:
seeker wrote: Personally I think FM is doing the equivalent of covering his ears and shouting "La La La" in regards to this argument so the more people bashing him over the head with it the better. Until he realizes that his 'interpretations' of the text are really centuries of Christian apologia designed specifically to obscure the meaning of the plain text no one person will get through to him.
Rarely is history cut and dry, it is subject to interpretation and if there is one thing I have learned over the years, the interpretation never is certain. Even within my lifetime I see attempts to change history that I have personally witnessed.

I don't shy away from controversial subjects and often enjoy playing the devil's advocate. There are usually two sides to every issue and it can be interesting to explore them. Sometimes, people can look at prevailing evidence in new ways and reach different conclusions.

Somewhere along the line this has ceased to be discussion. Its an argument and apparently for some a crusade. Too bad.
Hardly a crusade FM. The real question is do we stop our inquiries with the standard theology or dig deeper to find its real origins. So far your stance has just been to repeat the doctrine as you learned it and stop at that. What almost everyone else here has been suggesting is that there is more to the question than you are willing to admit. unfortunately you have wrapped yourself up in the question so mch you aren't looking at it intellectually.
seeker
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Post by seeker »

Ishtar wrote:...Seeker, who must have been very surprised by such news. ...
Um...thanks?
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

seeker wrote:
Ishtar wrote:...Seeker, who must have been very surprised by such news. ...
Um...thanks?
It was meant to be sarcastic, Seeker! :lol:
seeker
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Post by seeker »

:lol:

Me too.

I couldn't help but laugh when I read that soI felt I had to respond in kind :wink:
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

A tad off topic, Ish, but you may find this interesting given your fascination with mythology.

http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_92.pdf


In his seminal essay “The ‘Conquest of Canaan’ in the Book of Joshua and in History,” Nadav Na’aman has reminded us that the “written transcription of presumed oral tales may be more informative in regard to the period in which these tales were transcribed than to the time in which they were presumed to have been composed.”1 In this paper, I will apply this methodological reflection to some stories about Moses inside and outside the Torah, in order to show that these stories do not help us in reconstructing the ‘historical Moses’ but in understanding the diversity of nascent Judaism in the Persian period.
The present debate about the composition of the Torah is at times confusing.2 Since the majority of scholars abandoned the traditional documentary hypothesis, no new consensus about the formation of the Bible’s first five books has emerged. This said, there is a widespread agreement that the first publication of the Pentateuch—or of a Proto-Pentateuch—took place in the middle of the Persian period.3
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 »

Ish:
I agree there are no original manuscripts.

FYI, the Interlinear I have is based on “The New Testament in the Original Greek – The
Text Revised by Brook Foss Westcott D. D. and Fenton John Anthony Hort D. D.” 1948.
It is pretty well respected as a well researched Greek version of the NT.

The actual various first letters, etc, were probably copied at their first and every stop.
Kind of like a modern chain letter.
But I believe there was enough human respect for the content, as well as Devine guidance, that when the copies were made, they were accurate.

We will have to disagree on the gods became God thing.
I see it as the opposite.
We started out with one, and with the sponsorship of Satan, after his rebellion, came the multitude of others.
Satan’s idea being “I would rather you worshiped me, but worship whatever, as long as it is not YAWH.”
In fact the refusal to be worshiped is one of the things that set apart angels from demons.
When Daniel, John, and others tried to worship the angles giving them their visions, they were told “Not me, I am just the messenger! Worship God.”

Meanwhile, polytheism, while wide spread, was not universal.

There is a fine book called “Mohammed and Charlemagne” by Henri Pirenne that showed that one of the major reasons for the very fast rise of Islam was that the Islamic missionaries would visit the desert chieftains with the books of Christian writers professing the Trinity as official doctrine.
These tribes, as decedents of Abraham, had always believed in the One God concept.
They were easy converts to the original Christianity early on, as they saw the logical flow of the story.
Because of this history, they were strong monotheists.
They didn’t leave Christianity. Christianity left them.

I, of course, disagree on the historical Jesus.
But I find your time line on the doctrinal growth of the current “Church” pretty accurate.
As I have said before, it was in the 100 to 150 time frame that what I call “primitive Christianity” disappeared.
I would agree with a lot of what you are saying, if you are saying the “Literalists” began at that time frame, and ignored the earlier Christian teachings with the percussion of the “unbelievers.”
Since most of them trace their doctrine back to this time period, I do not consider the current collection of so called Christian churches to be very Christian.
I certainly do not consider them to be monotheistic.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

1. There is no evidence of Jesus in first century Jerusalem. No sign of a human man called Jesus Christ who performed miracles, had 12 disciples and died on the cross and rose again.

Wednesday night there is a special called "Resurrection" and from the promos promises to be be a scholarly discussion of the "evidence" for this trick. We'll see.

Last night there was a special about underground cities in Israel which showed a grave full of adult skeletons and proclaimed them to be the remains of the "infants" slaughtered by Herod!

I'll be recording Resurrection for anyone who wants it via Pando.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

But I believe there was enough human respect for the content, as well as Devine guidance, that when the copies were made, they were accurate.

That is why you have to read Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus."

You will find that they are not accurate at all.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 »

So, I guess I don't mind you calling me Christian.
And I will defend what I consider to be “Christian.”
But please don't call me a "Literalist"
(At least as I believe you define the word.)
kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 »

Min:
I will see if I an find a copy.
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

kbs2244 wrote:So, I guess I don't mind you calling me Christian.
And I will defend what I consider to be “Christian.”
But please don't call me a "Literalist"
(At least as I believe you define the word.)
So just to confirm KB, you don't believe that a figure called Jesus who had 12 disciples and performed miracles and died on the cross and was resurrected actually lived at any point in history?
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Minimalist wrote:
I'll be recording Resurrection for anyone who wants it via Pando.
I'll wait for your review first. :)
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