Contact Early Possible European Descendants

[clubs_stink]

Now, someone get me a doobie.

Maybe more than one of you have been smoking your lunch.

It is strange to me how so much energy is spent discrediting the bible and relegating its characters to the realm of myths and fantasies. Then five minutes later we are being asked to consider that certain european royals may actually be descendants of these mythical individuals. There have been countless mythical genealogies, most perpetrated in the middle ages or later which attempt to tie europeans to the sons of Noah. As for the Meravingian genealogy, it has been thoroughly debunked countless times. Most of these connections are false and intentional misrepresentations in order to achieve some type of legitimacy in the eyes of the faithful serfs who would die supporting their expansionist ideals.

Roach your doob, grab a handful of corn chips and let your head clear.

I never said fantasy, I belive I said EMBELISHED. The clues to a lot of the things we want to know is in ancient literature. We just don't know how to separate the wheat from the chaff rather than be forced to contemplate (in order to profess a belief in a higher power) things such as vitual sperm and virtual world destruction. We humans hardly need the intervention of a angry vengeful GOD in order to do ourselves in. We do just find on our own.

[Forum Monk]

We humans hardly need the intervention of a angry vengeful GOD in order to do ourselves in. We do just find on our own.

Amen, brother! Now your preachin' to the choir.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Apparently, Whitey was all over the place.

Ship-wrecked Vikings?

They can't have all been great sailors.

No, they were great icepack hunters. They were Solutreans. They walked across the pack ice at it's max. extent: around 18,000BC, when they were following their prey. After hunting the European megafauna into extinction they looked, and found, new prey categories. This coincided with an advance of the ice to its southernmost boundaries. Calory rich sea mammals (seals, walrus, dolphins, whales) and especially penguins (subsequently, not surprisingly, extinct in the northern hemisphere) got on the menu. Almost as plentiful prey as the megafauna once was. And (Solutrean) man adapted, and learned to hunt and live on the ice. Just like the Inuit.



That's how they literally walked to America. Completely unintentionally, to be sure. They didn't even know America existed in the first place. They were simply following their prey.
They – a couple hundred – were 'stranded' in America when the ice retracted, around 14,000BC. Not that they were worried: to them America was paradise, because unlike Europe it still had megafauna. So the Solutreans thrived. They still remembered the (wasteful) hunting techniques. And hundreds became thousands. And spread across the continent.
During their discovery of America they of course met the more primitive proto-indians who were advancing from the opposite direction. Via the Bering land bridge. But in vastly greater numbers than the Solutreans.
It was, literally, a clash of civilisations.

Something happened. The Solutreans suddenly disappear from the archaeological record. The (proto-)indians remain.

Genocide? The actual wiping out of a race?
Or 'simply' a race-specific contagious disease? Viral or otherwise.

[Minimalist]

Do you have a decent internet connection, R/S?

[john]

jawohl, all.

Catlin noted that some members of the Mandan tribe exhibited blue or grey eyes and red/blond hair. I believe they lived mostly on the upper Missouri, were agrarian, lived in earth/log lodges in welldefined villages and were definitely wiped out by smallpox. They were not nomadic and there is no insinuation that they spoke Welsh. Catlin was an accurate and trustworthy observer, so it would appear that some European genetic influence was present in the early 1800's. However - caveat - that influence could have as easily happened in the previous hundred years as in the previous thousand, or more. Beware the Lost Tribes of Israel mythos.

john

[Cognito]

After hunting the European megafauna into extinction

I believe some, but not all Solutreans were driven to the oceans due to the relative abundance of food there versus an increasingly hostile land environment with the onset of the LGM. Newly severe climactic conditions were rough on large animals also.

During their discovery of America they of course met the more primitive proto-indians who were advancing from the opposite direction.

Probably those who were advancing from the west in addition to those who had already been settled in for thousands of years ... most likely a confusing mess.

[Digit]

Walked to America RS? Why the Hell would they do that with boats at their disposal?

[Rokcet Scientist]

Do you have a decent internet connection, R/S?

DSL: 8 mbps downstream, 1,5 mbps upstream.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Something happened. The Solutreans suddenly disappear from the archaeological record. The (proto-)indians remain.

Genocide? The actual wiping out of a race?
Or 'simply' a race-specific contagious disease? Viral or otherwise.

X2, a predominantly European Haplogroup, exists in Native American populations to this day. Is Haplogroup X2 the remnants of the Solutrean culture?

North and South America

Haplogroup X is also one of the five haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas. Although it occurs only at a frequency of about 3% for the total current indigenous population of the Americas, it is a major haplogroup in northeastern North America, where among the Algonquian peoples it comprises up to 25% of mtDNA types. It is also present in lesser percentages to the west and south of this area -- in North America among the Sioux (15%), the Nuu-Chah-Nulth (11%–13%), the Navajo (7%), and the Yakima (5%), and in South America among the Yanomami people (12%) in eight villages in Roraima in northwestern Brazil.

Unlike the four main Native American haplogroups (A, B, C, and D), X is not at all strongly associated with East Asia. The sole occurrence of X in Asia discovered so far is in Altaia in South Siberia (Derenko et al, 2001), and detailed examination (Reidla et al, 2003) has shown that the Altaian sequences are all almost identical, suggesting that they arrived in the area probably from the South Caucasus more recently than 5000 BC.

This absence of haplogroup X in Asia is one of the major factors causing the current rethinking of the peopling of the Americas. The New World haplogroup X DNA (now called subgroup X2a) is as different from any of the Old World X2 lineages as they are from each other, indicating a very ancient origin.

The Solutrean Hypothesis posits that haplogroup X reached North America with a wave of European migration about 20,000 BC by the Solutreans, a stone-age culture in south-western France and in Spain, by boat around the southern edge of the Arctic ice pack.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)

[Rokcet Scientist]

Walked to America RS? Why the Hell would they do that with boats at their disposal?

Because their 'boats' couldn't get 'm there while walking could!
Walking was safer.
IF they had 'boats' – a big IF – those will have been very primitive curachs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currach). Not suitable for ocean crossings: hell, they probably never went out of sight of their tribe on the ice.

As we speak, one lonely Dutchman is rowing from Peru to Oz. By himself. Left 6 weeks ago. IF he succeeds it will be the very first time in history (afawk) that one person, by himself, has rowed accross the Pacific Ocean. This is a trained rower: he, with his brother, rowed across the Atlantic Ocean last year. But it took a custom-built, tricked-out, high-tech carbon-fiber 21st century rowboat with satnav to do it.
18,000 years ago the state of technology was decidedly different....

[Forum Monk]

I tend to agree RS. Boats were probably used for hunting, fishing, gathering of seaweed or whatever, but not as a method of transoceanic exploration. The north atlantic is treacherous and cold. Still walking to N.A. involves a journey of more than a 1000 miles. No casual walk in the park and certainly not something done without well reasoned and risk-assessed thought. Basicially these people (tribe or tribes) decided it better to venture across a 1000 miles (obviously they didnt know how far it was) of ice in search of sustenance while leaving familiar grounds behind. Its an incredible theory either way you look at it don't you think?

[Digit]

Well RS I took the boat view for a number ofreasons.
One, Many of the implements previously used by the Innuit are near identical those used by the Solutreans.
Two, you listed food sources, many of these would be most likely taken at sea rather that on land.
Three, to survive on the ice for the time scale required to transit the Atlantic I would think the following would be required. Fire making tools, a fire proof base for the fire, fuel for the fire, some form of vessel for heating water, something to suspend that above the fire, fishing lines and hooks, harpoons and lines and possibly floats for the lines, flint or similar, knapping tools, spare clothing, emergency food supplies, a shelter.
If they travelled with women and children, (logical) supplies for those as well.
Man hauling of sleds across pack ice is a killing task, I'd use a boat!

[Digit]

As regards your view Monk that these people didn't know the land was there I would disagree.
Look at my previous post and tell me if they could have used less equipment, this would suggest a deliberate move to known land.
Do you think the Pilgrim Fathers would have sailed out into the wide blue yonder with no expectation of finding land? I think not, even Leif Ericsson was following a known course.
To survive in the New World was one thing, to have a viable gene pool infers colonisation, that means planning with a destination in mind and sufficient personnel.

[Beagle]

http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/mariners/ ... iner1.html

R/S, check out this link. Also google "Erectus Ahoy". It has become pretty accepted in many circles that humans had early seafaring capabilities.
Dennis Stanford et al agree with the route of migration that you've posted but they believe it was done by boat - hugging the ice shelf and hunting - sleeping on it at night.

Orthodox scientists should stomp all over this theory. But the silence says it all. Robert Bednarik, from Austalia, presents the evidence in the link above.

[Rokcet Scientist]

I tend to agree RS. Boats were probably used for hunting, fishing, gathering of seaweed or whatever, but not as a method of transoceanic exploration. The north atlantic is treacherous and cold. Still walking to N.A. involves a journey of more than a 1000 miles. No casual walk in the park and certainly not something done without well reasoned and risk-assessed thought. Basicially these people (tribe or tribes) decided it better to venture across a 1000 miles (obviously they didnt know how far it was) of ice in search of sustenance while leaving familiar grounds behind.

Food is man's no. 1 motivator.
And it is important to realise, imo, that the trek was not a matter of a few weeks, months, years, or even decades! It probably took centuries. If not millennia.

Its an incredible theory either way you look at it don't you think?

No, Monk, not incredible.
Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.
The Inuit have lived on the ice for thousands of years, never even touching dry land. No reason why the Solutreans couldn't do the same thing.