otzi

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:05 am

The head wound and the knife wound to the hand, as well as the blood on his own knife suggest a close-in fight. The arrow could have been either the first shot, fired from ambush, or the last shot fired at a retreating foe.

I lean towards the latter because why would you wait for someone to get 100 feet past you before taking the shot?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:18 am

RS was complaining the other day Min about interpretation of evidence, that is the name of the game isn't it? You acumulate facts and attempt to understand the scenario from there. Your interpretation is the one that appears to best fit the known facts.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:31 pm

RS;
We need a comparison of sea level, and thus oxygen content at that level, at that time!
Also, any climate data for that area at that time?
Somehow, I doubt present conditions.
Was this the time of the land bridge between Britain and the continent?
I remember a story about an “Otiz style” copper axe found in Britain.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:31 pm

kbs2244 wrote:RS;

We need a comparison of sea level, and thus oxygen content at that level, at that time!
Also, any climate data for that area at that time?
Somehow, I doubt present conditions.

'Present conditions' – sustained throughout 5,000 years at that altitude – are the reason Oetzi was there to be found in the first place, kb: he was in deepfreeze. Permafrost.

Was this the time of the land bridge between Britain and the continent?

Afaik that land bridge was in the pleistocene. Not the holocene.
A minimum of 7,000 years before Oetzi died.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:40 am

So, if the conditions now are pretty much what they were in his time, we have a high altitude hand to hand knife fight followed by the flight of a well equipped, and used to the climate, “Rambo” who was shot in the back from someone at a lower level.
He, or someone he may have been with, removed the arrow in his back, but the arrow head remained imbedded in his shoulder blade.
He then slipped or fell, most likely out of sight or reach of his pursuers and/or partners since the body was not looted, died, got covered with snow and wasn’t found for 5000 years.
I still think CSI would have it wrapped up in ½ hour. After all, that route has “Smugglers Row” written all over it.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:53 am

His equipment was spread out around him, the only reason I can think of to explain that was that he was making damn sure it was all to hand if he needed it in a hurry.
Ie, he was afraid that he was still being pursued.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:13 am

I doubt that he would have been in any condition to use the bow with that shoulder injury.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:19 am

So we think he was alive after the fall and getting ready to defend himself?

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:23 am

The earliest scenarios (before they knew he had been in a fight) had him making a sort of camp for the night and simply dying of natural causes as a snow storm covered him. We also have to allow for the fact that predators did not disturb the body. There must have been wolves in the Alps.

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:31 am

I don’t know about wolves that far up.
They are at the top of the food chain and need something to hunt.
It doesn’t have to be big stuff. They seem to get along OK on rabbits and mice in Canada and Alaska. But they are carnivores. Is there any meat up there other than the occasional human?
If he was getting ready to defend himself, I would bet it had two legs, not four.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:48 am

So we think he was alive after the fall and getting ready to defend himself?

What fall?

I doubt that he would have been in any condition to use the bow with that shoulder injury.

Good point that Min, but many years ago I was involved in a auto smash with temps way below freezing point and I severed two veins on the back of my hand which ultimately needed stitching. The blood froze on the back of my hand and stopped the blood loss completely and numbed the pain.
Also he would have been pretty desperate by then I would think and the fact that he appears to have laid his equipment out ready for use would imply that he was certainly willing to try.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:47 am

Is there any meat up there other than the occasional human?

Mountain goats?

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:49 am

The blood froze on the back of my hand and stopped the blood loss completely and numbed the pain.

I thought the analysis of his stomach contents was such that they figured out that he died in Spring? Would it have been that cold? Of course you can always get snow in the mountains but I would think that experienced people would avoid the mountains in the dead of winter. That's just asking for trouble.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:17 pm

Ooops! Quite right Min.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:30 pm

Minimalist wrote:

Is there any meat up there other than the occasional human?

Mountain goats?

Yes, Ibex.
But when you've seen 'm just once (with binoculars), jumping and running up and down nearly vertical slopes as if they ain't there, you'll realise that wolves don't have a snowball's chance in hell to catch one!
But wolves could catch marmots. Alpine marmots are the size of medium-sized dogs. Excellent wolf prey.