Quicker Demise For Neanderthal?

[RK Awl O'Gist]

Regardless to what daybrown says-and let's face it she's pretty much working to her own agenda-there is no genetic PROOF that Neanderthals and modern humans interbred.

[Minimalist]

For what it's worth.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/dna.html

If Neandertals made a significant genetic contribution to modern humans, similarities should exist between DNA of Neandertals and that of people from Europe, where the Neandertals persisted the longest. Pääbo and his colleagues compared the Neandertal DNA to that from five modern populations, but it proved no closer to DNA from modern Europeans than to that from four other groups. While this does not rule out the possibility of Neandertal and modern human mixing, it suggests that the Neandertal genetic contribution to modern gene pools, if any, was small.

[daybrown]

<. Pääbo and his colleagues compared the Neandertal DNA to that from five modern populations, but it proved no closer to DNA from modern Europeans than to that from four other groups. While this does not rule out the possibility of Neandertal and modern human mixing, it suggests that the Neandertal genetic contribution to modern gene pools, if any, was small.>
In the first place, as I have said already, the *only* DNA he has to go on is mitochondrial, and as I said already, the birthing problems wiped most of that out fairly quick.

Secondly, if you knew anything about computer code, you'd understand how really tiny variations can have enormous effects. So even if the Neanderthal contribution is only .00001%, that's enough. Thirdly, there is the matter of RNA, which turns out not to be the junk people thot it was. I dunno if any RNA from any ancient source, HSS or HNS, is still around to look at.

The human genome is like looking at the binary executables; but we *dont* yet have the source code, and only a very limited understanding of how some of the RNA empowers DNA to do its thing; or not.

And lastly, I remind everyone that when HNS was discovered, by clearly *racist* white academics, they established the authorative tradition that none of *them* could have descended from such a brute. Christian academic institutions have the same stance, so any rebuttal now of the idea has to be presented by someone who dont have a dog in this fight. It'd be really nice to hear from Japanese paleontologists on this.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] It'd be really nice to hear from Japanese paleontologists on this.

The intimation that Japanese paleologists would per definition be objective as opposed to "Caucasian" paleologists, who would not, is a prejudice in itself.

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

In the first place, as I have said already, the *only* DNA he has to go on is mitochondrial, and as I said already, the birthing problems wiped most of that out fairly quick.

But you haven't provided a shred of proof of these 'birthing problems'.

Secondly, if you knew anything about computer code, you'd understand how really tiny variations can have enormous effects

Stop being patronising.

It'd be really nice to hear from Japanese paleontologists on this.

Given the frequency of your statements about 'Whites' clearly being descended from Neanderthals because the old circus shows had more 'white freaks' than any other race, it suggests that you're not so impartial yourself.

[daybrown]

Chinese and Japanese archaeologist dont have problems with institutions that have to pander to the followers of Levantine scripture. So- rather than argue pointlessly, I'd look for a source that dont have a dog in this fight.

I dont claim proof anymore than I claim faith. I simply offer the data and apply logic and Occam's razor for the benefit of any rational mind interested. I'm not here trying to change anyone's mind, most especially those who have faith. Faith is all about having a mind that cannot be changed.

Early Chinese texts refer to the Tocharian white skin, big ugly noses, and hairy faces, which *they* all associate with monkeys. They called the Tocharians "Monkey faced", and clearly see the simian characteristics of white people. If not from the Neanderthals, where else did Aryans get these traits?

Well, of course, if you believe in scripture, the whole idea is rejected out of hand since you believe we all descend from Adam. And in rejecting, will look for any minute inconsistancy or rely on any other authority with the same opinion, repeating that rejection as if it is adequate support.

But if, however, you accept the idea of HNS ancestry, then what? Can anyone charge that it is a racist position? Doesnt it add support for Darwin's Descent of Man? Dont we see even more radical evolutionary changes in the hominid line? And doesnt the recent time frame add support for the notion of evolution as a *continuing* process with a lot of diversity?

If you go to Africa and look at the skeletons in the grave yards, you can tell where the person came from; the Pygmie, Sahel, Masai, Bantu, and so on all have recognizable structural features from relatively pure bloodlines. You cant do that in Europe. The variation from short to tall, stocky to gracile, and in coloration is found all over the continent. Contrary to Nazi Propaganda, neither the Germans nor any other European bloodline is pure at all, and never was. There was some kind of element added to the lineage that resulted in the kind of variation we see in mongrel dogs.

You just cant ever be sure what you are going to get. And because the HNS/HSS hybridization is so recent, when you inbreed trying to get a pure line, what you get is hemophilia, cystic fibrosis, and other problems, just like we see recent dog breeding running into deformities.

But then, OTOH, look at the *non* Aryan Pharonic houses. Some of them were inbred for 12 generations, but the *only* obvious freak anyone knows about is Akhnaton. And he was the result of his momma, the daughter of a small town mayor, cuckoholding her cross dressing fag husband with a nubian slave. Inbreeding worked in Egypt, but was a disaster in Europe.

So- Native Europeans have far more freaks. Course, sometimes the freak is like Einstein, which is why the Aryans have had so many stellar geniuses.

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

Early Chinese texts refer to the Tocharian white skin, big ugly noses, and hairy faces, which *they* all associate with monkeys. They called the Tocharians "Monkey faced", and clearly see the simian characteristics of white people. If not from the Neanderthals, where else did Aryans get these traits?

We've already established that they didn't, in the very same book on genetics that you insist on quoting from.

Well, of course, if you believe in scripture, the whole idea is rejected out of hand since you believe we all descend from Adam. And in rejecting, will look for any minute inconsistancy or rely on any other authority with the same opinion, repeating that rejection as if it is adequate support.

Can I ask where you got that impression of me from?

But if, however, you accept the idea of HNS ancestry, then what? Can anyone charge that it is a racist position? Doesnt it add support for Darwin's Descent of Man? Dont we see even more radical evolutionary changes in the hominid line? And doesnt the recent time frame add support for the notion of evolution as a *continuing* process with a lot of diversity?

Brian Sykes said that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons last shared a common ancestor 250, 000 years ago. 9 The Seven Daughters of Eve p124. How is that recent?

You just cant ever be sure what you are going to get. And because the HNS/HSS hybridization is so recent, when you inbreed trying to get a pure line, what you get is hemophilia, cystic fibrosis, and other problems, just like we see recent dog breeding running into deformities

You mean non-existent hybridization, and the rest of the sentence is just plain, old-fashioned guesswork.

So- Native Europeans have far more freaks. Course, sometimes the freak is like Einstein, which is why the Aryans have had so many stellar geniuses.

And you can quote medical evidence in support of that?

[daybrown]

Brian Sykes said that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons last shared a common ancestor 250, 000 years ago. 9 The Seven Daughters of Eve p124. How is that recent?
Sykes dont know *why* there's only seven. All the mtDNA is gone because of birthing problems, and the Y chromosome is not stable enough that old to identify where it existed.

You mean non-existent hybridization, and the rest of the sentence is just plain, old-fashioned guesswork.
I mean that Occam's razor suggests there's a *reason* for the missing mtDNA lines, and if you have another besides hybridization, I'd be grateful to consider it.

daybrown wrote:
So- Native Europeans have far more freaks. Course, sometimes the freak is like Einstein, which is why the Aryans have had so many stellar geniuses.

And you can quote medical evidence in support of that?
Surf for the old photos of freaks from the circuses. There's the famous "Siamese Twins", but nearly all the rest wear white faces. Even the bearded Ladies. I usta work in mental institutions; nearly all their faces were white as well.

[Minimalist]

I mean that Occam's razor suggests there's a *reason* for the missing mtDNA lines, and if you have another besides hybridization, I'd be grateful to consider it.

Occam's Razor suggests that the simplest alternative is usually correct. (A doubtful assumption, however.)

In that case, the simplest reason for missing mtDNA lines is that they never existed in the first place.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] I usta work in mental institutions [...]

And they let you out?

[daybrown]

<In that case, the simplest reason for missing mtDNA lines is that they never existed in the first place.>
There are *scores* of mtDNA lines in the Levant, from which it is commonly reported that HSS moved into Europe. Why did only 7 go to Europe? Statistically, that is impossible.

Did the Neanderthal warriors wipe out only the *women*? We have scores of Y chromosome lines in Europe from the Mid East. The men made it; why didnt the women? Hello?

But like I said in my previous post that was missed: *IF* you believe in scripture, then you think that all men descended from Adam & Noah, and would reject the whole idea of hybridization out of hand. But even if you dont believe in scripture, there are so many all around us that do, its easier emotionally to deny hybridization rather than have to confront all of them about it. And after all, the guys who found the first Neanderthal were from very racist cultures and worked in racist academic institutions. So they too would reject the whole notion of HNS hybridization out of hand.

Just like Plate Tectonics, which was a crank theory when I was in school, that all of the received academic authorities dismissed out of hand, so now I see the same kind of thinking at work regarding HNS, and have yet to see any reasonable explanation for why there are only 7 mtDNA lines that made it into Europe from the Levant.

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation other than hybrization?

[Minimalist]

Why did only 7 go to Europe? Statistically, that is impossible.

That opens up the whole question of which ones did go to Europe and which ones stayed behind and why?

I don't know that there can ever be a reason for that but I doubt that Cro-Magnon had a concept of Conquest and Exploration of a New World. That seems to be intellectually beyond their capabilities.

Maybe it was only some of the weaker bands who were pushed out by stronger bands? After all, why voluntarily leave the nice warm Middle East to go live in the frozen north?

[Rokcet Scientist]

Why did only 7 go to Europe? Statistically, that is impossible.

That opens up the whole question of which ones did go to Europe and which ones stayed behind and why?

I don't know that there can ever be a reason for that but I doubt that Cro-Magnon had a concept of Conquest and Exploration of a New World. That seems to be intellectually beyond their capabilities.

It happened by accident http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewt ... 70&start=0

Maybe it was only some of the weaker bands who were pushed out by stronger bands? After all, why voluntarily leave the nice warm Middle East to go live in the frozen north?

Probably a mix of those. They didn't have GPS then...

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

Sykes dont know *why* there's only seven. All the mtDNA is gone because of birthing problems,

You mean alleged birthing problems. You've yet to show any actual medical proof.

I mean that Occam's razor suggests there's a *reason* for the missing mtDNA lines, and if you have another besides hybridization, I'd be grateful to consider it.

Occams' Razor is a trite piece of pseudo-philosophy which isn't always right. And why is hybridisation the 'obvious' answer-according to you at least?

Surf for the old photos of freaks from the circuses. There's the famous "Siamese Twins", but nearly all the rest wear white faces. Even the bearded Ladies

Which only proves that the circuses visited by those photographers happened to have more Caucasian people with deformities. I doubt whether that was representative of society either then or now.

I usta work in mental institutions; nearly all their faces were white as well.

In what capacity did you work in these places? You don't come across as someone qualified as a medical practitioner.

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

After all, why voluntarily leave the nice warm Middle East to go live in the frozen north?

Wasn't the Middle East more temperate until around 12,000 years ago? In that case, it makes the migration north an even stranger choice.