Archaeologica.org

60 Anno Domini? That 60 years after it existed, surely?

I don't buy that.

Yes, and actually, even if Christianity had existed for 60 years, in wasn't something Rome had taken on or was intent on inflicting on everyone. That didn't happen for at least another hundred years, I think.

Paulinus's attack was definitely, though, one of ousting the Druids - as they burned their headquarters down. So it was seizing power - but maybe they wanted to instal Mithras? Who knows?

Absolutely. The Druids were seen as, if not exactly organizing resistance in Britain....because it wasn't very orgnized.... at least providing a focal point.

So what's all this about the 70 AD date for Christianity? Haven't heard you say that before.

The usual date for the composition of the gospel of Mark....which was the earliest.

From a theological point of view, it would have been at the Pentecost following Crucifixion, when Christ anointed his followers with Holy Sprit.
And with that they became his “anointed followers.”
That would be 33 AD

But Acts 11: 26 says it was in Antioch of Syria that the “disciples were first called Christians.”
And the events surrounding the other events in this text date to around 44 AD.

So are we into a “common usage” thing here?

BTW
The Anno Domini thing has some pretty bad math in it.

And who knows what documents the vatican has buried in its archives from then that they won't allow the public to see.

A Handbook of Greek Mythology by H. J. Rose:
Under his rule (Kronos), according to a legend as old as Hesiod, all was innocent happiness. Men lived long and virtuous lives, without labour, strife, or the need of law, having all things in common and dwelling safely amid great abundance of all manner of produce which the earth brought forth of her own accord. In short, it was the Golden Age...Saturnia regna.

Pagan and Christian Creeds by Edward Carpenter:
But long before this Hesiod had recorded a past Golden Age when life had been gracious in communal fraternity and joyful in peace, when human beings and animals spoke the same language, when death had followed on sleep, without old age or disease, and after death men had moved as good daimones or genii over the lands. Pindar, three hundred years after Hesiod, had confirmed the existence of the Islands of the Blest, where the good led a blameless, tearless, life. Plato the same, 1 with further references to the fabled island of Atlantis; the Egyptians believed in a former golden age under the god Râ to which they looked back with regret and envy; the Persians had a garden of Eden similar to that of the Hebrews; the Greeks a garden of the Hesperides, in which dwelt the serpent whose head was ultimately crushed beneath the heel of Hercules; and so on. The references to a supposed far-back state of peace and happiness are indeed numerous.

Teutonic Myth and Legend by Donald A. Mackenzie:
To Ask and Embla, the first man and the first woman, did the gods impart divine attributes when they had but tree life, and were of little might and without destiny. Naked they stood before Odin at the seaway end. Perceiving their conscious shame, he gave unto them divine garments, and in these they took pride. In Midgard they dwelt, on the shore edge of Western waters, and their children multiplied, and their children's children. The lives of mortals were long in those days; they were yet innocent, and dwelt together in peace. The Golden Age prevailed in Asgard, nor had the Evil One of Ironwood corrupted the gods.

Indian Myth and Legend by Donald A. Mackenzie:
One of the long-lived Indian sages was named Markandeya. In the Vana Parva section of the Mahábhárata he visits the exiled Pandava brethren in a forest, and is addressed as "the great Muni, who has seen many thousands of ages passing away. In this world", says the chief exile, "there is no man who hath lived so long as thou hast. . . . Thou didst adore the Supreme Deity when the Universe was dissolved, and the world was without a firmament, and there were no gods and no demons. Thou didst behold the recreation of the four orders of beings when the winds were restored to their places and the waters were consigned to their properplace. . . . Neither death nor old age which causeth the body to decay have any power over thee."

Markandeya, who has full knowledge of the Past, the Present, and the Future, informs the exiles that the Supreme Being is "great, incomprehensible, wonderful, and immaculate, without beginning and without end. . . . He is the Creator of all, but is himself Increate, and is the cause of all power."

After the Universe is dissolved, all Creation is renewed, and the cycle of the four Ages begins again with Krita Yuga. "A cycle of the Yugas comprises twelve thousand divine years. A full thousand of such cycles constitutes a Day of Brahma." At the end of each Day of Brahma comes "Universal Destruction".

Markandeya goes on to say that the world grows extremely sinful at the close of the last Kali Yuga of the Day of Brahma. Brahmans abstain from prayer and meditation, and Sudras take their place. Kshatriyas and Vaisyas forget the duties of their castes; all men degenerate and beasts of prey increase. The earth is ravaged by fire, cows give little milk, fruit trees no longer blossom, Indra sends no rain; the world of men becomes filled with sin and immorality. . . . Then the earth is swept by fire, and heavy rains fall until the forests and mountains are covered over by the rising flood. All the winds pass away; they are absorbed by the Lotus floating on the breast of the waters, in which the Creator sleeps; the whole Universe is a dark expanse of water.

Hawaiian Mythology by Martha Beckwith
Contemporary with or somewhat later than Keawe of Hawaii was the rise to power of Ku-ali‘i (Ku the chief) of Oahu, said to have ultimately subjugated the whole group and been succeeded in historic times by his "son" Peleiholani. The Hawaiian chronologist records: "This chronology begins with a famous chief and ruler named Kuali‘i. He was called a God, one of supernatural power, a soldier, a runner, swift of foot. Five times he ran around Oahu in a single day. He loved Oahu alone, he did not care for any other country. He is said to have lived long, (until) he walked with a cane; four times forty years. and fifteen he lived, that is 175 years." The story of the famous genealogical chant of Kuali‘i has already been related, in which through 610 lines he is glorified as "a god . . . a messenger from heaven . . . a stranger (haole) from Kahiki." Genealogists give him a place on the Kalona-iki line from Nana-ulu.

The Chaledan Account of the Deluge by George Smith, 1873
In conclusion I would remark that this account of the Deluge opens to us a new field of inquiry in the early part of the Bible history. The question has often been asked, "What is the origin of the accounts of the antediluvians, with their long lives so many times greater than the longest span of human life? Where was Paradise, the abode of the first parents of mankind? From whence comes the story of the flood, the ark, of the birds?" Various conflicting answers have been given to these important questions, while evidence on these subjects before the Greek period has been entirely wanting. The Cuneiform inscriptions are now shedding a new light on these questions, and supplying material which future scholars will have to work out. Following this inscription, we may expect many other discoveries throwing light on these ancient periods, until we are able to form a decisive opinion on the many great questions involved. It would be a mistake to suppose that with the translation and commentary on an inscription like this the matter is ended. The origin, age, and history of the legend have to be traced, and it has to be compared with the many similar stories current among various nations.

Hi Monk

Reading through your last post, it reminded me of something I've come across in my travels. I don't know whether to believe, partly because there is no evidence to support it either way, but also because I believe that myth is not history in itself, although it can inform us about history.

But it is an interesting theory and, judging by the direction you seem to be going in, you will get there sooner or later - so why not make it sooner?

You may have heard of Madame Helene Blavatsky, founder of the Theosophical Society? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Petrovna_Blavatsky

In the mid-19th century, she moved to India and eventually became associated with two mahatmas who, over time, gave her much of the material for her book, The Secret Doctrine. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm

The bit I think you will be interested in is on the five rounds of man, and I'm sorry, but as you will see, the A word is unavoidable.

The Fourth Round of Man

The Lord of the Fourth Round was Indu, the Moon. The Atlantean empire was destroyed by a great catastrophe (Deluge) in the Miocene (about four million years ago). The Atlanteans were the Fourth Round of man. The Atlantean sub-races were:

· First sub-race = Rmoahal, fair-skinned Asuras along with the first class of Solar Pitrs
· Second sub-race = Tlatvatli, who lived where the Atlantic ocean now is.
· Third sub-race = Toltecs, (Daityas and Danavas, including Maya Danava
· Fourth sub-race = Turanians (Rakshasas)
· Fifth sub-race = Semitic
· Sixth sub-race = Akkadians – born after the Deluge. From these came: Pelasgians, Etruscans, Carthaginians, Scythians.
· Seventh sub-race = Mongolians, who developed from the Turanians, and from these came: Chinese of the inland (not coasts) Malays, Tibetans, Hungarians, Finns, Esquimaux (Eskimos) plus mixed with Toltecs to form Red Indians. Some mixed with the fifth sub-race to form Greeks, Asia Minor tribes and Phoenicians.

I think it would be interesting to compare this with what we know about genetics today. For instance, she has the Finns and the Hungarians connected, which has only recently been shown genetically.

Anyway, she goes on:

The huge continent we call Atlantis, the continent of the fourth Race, named Kusha in the occult records, embraced northern Asia - untouched, as said, from Lemurian times - stretching far to the north of the great sea, now the Gobi Desert; it extended eastwards, in a solid block of land, including China and Japan, and passed beyond them across the present northern Pacific Ocean, till it almost touched the western coast of North America; southwards it covered India and Ceylon, Burmah, and the Malay peninsula, and westwards included Persia, Arabia and Syria, the Red Sea and Abyssinia, occupying the basin of the Mediterranean, covering southern Italy and Spain, and, projecting from Scotland and Ireland, then above the waters, into what is now sea, it stretched westwards, covering the present Atlantic Ocean and a large part of North and South America.

The catastrophe which rent it, in the mid-Miocene, about four million years ago, into seven islands, of varying size, brought to the surface Norway and Sweden, much of southern Europe, Egypt, nearly all Africa, and much of North America, while sinking northern Asia, and breaking Atlantis off from the Imperishable Sacred Land. The lands later called Ruta and Daitya, the present bed of the Atlantic, were rent away from America, but a great belt of land still connected them, a belt submerged in the catastrophe of 850,000 years ago, in theatre Pliocene, leaving the two lands as separate islands. These, again, perished, some 200,000 years ago, leaving Poseidonis in the midst of the Atlantic.

Again, how does this stand up to recent geologic thinking?

After the disappearance of Poseidonis, (the last remaining island after the Deluge) the deterioration of the scattered Atlantean tribes was rapid, though the Atlanteans in the east of Asia held their own and the Polynesians, Samoans and Tongas are surviving relics. Some of the tribes even sank so low as to intermarry with the hybrid creatures that sprang from the sin of the mindless. Others intermarried with the degraded remnants of the seventh Lemurian sub-race, and the Veddahs of Ceylon are the descendants from such unions, as are the hairy men of Borneo, the Andaman Islanders, Bushmen, and some Australian aborigines. The majority of the inhabitants of the earth are still Fourth Round people, but the only ones that seem to have future are the Japanese, and perhaps the Chinese.

I'll do another post for the next bit, the Fifth Round of Man, which, apparently, is us.

Here is Madame Blavatsky's take on the Fifth Round of Man, and some of this ties in more with what we know historically, and could be compared to the the Vedantic story of dynasties of the patriarch Yayati's five sons.

Lord of the Fifth Round is Budha (Mercury), son of Indu (Moon).

The Fifth Round were the ‘seeds’, the chosen ones, who Vaishavata Manu had originally led away from the Fourth Round to an area of land near the Arctic Circle in order to protect them from the coming deluge, and to instruct them in the Vedic path.

About 850,000 years ago, the Fifth Round was lead southward across the Himalayas and settled in the northern India, in Aryavarta. At its head were the Seven Sages: Marichi, Atri, Pulastya, Pulaha (?Kavi) Angiras (?Kratu,) Kardama, and Daksha - the names vary in different lists - who had long been guiding their evolution. In Manusmrti [Laws of Manu] we find them given as above, except that Daksha is called Prachetas.

With these were three others: Vashishtha, Bhrgu and Narada, making the Ten Rishis. Under its divine Kings, it warred against the peoples occupying the lands into which it came, Titans left from the third Round, Daityas and Rakshasas of the Fourth. For example, we have Rama warring against the Rakshasas in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) under their mighty king, Ravana, and establishing his kingdom from the Himalayas to the southern sea.

These Aryans received the Zodiac directly from the Sons of will and yoga, who came among them as Teacher, the Serpents (Avatars) who re-descended, who taught and instructed the Fifth Round " and gave them the Senzar language, the "secret sacerdotal tongue," the true "language of the Gods," from which Sanskrit was derived, still the "mystery tongue" of Initiates. Among them arose the twenty-four Buddhas, still reverenced among the Jains as the twenty-four Tirthamkaras.

I'm breaking the next bit out of quotes to make it easier to read:

The Aryan sub-races were:

· The Aryans, the first:

· The Aryo-Semitic sub-race, the second: migrated westwards from Central Asia, peopling Afghanistan, passing along the Ous, and crossing the Euphrates into Arabia and Syria; these ‘aryanised’ many of the Turanian and Akkadian tribes along this route, and the great empires of Assyria and Babylonia arose as the result of their impulse. The Phoenicians, the later Egyptians and the old Greeks arose from their intermixture with the seventh Atlantean sub-race, as has been already mentioned. Some offshoots of this race travelled eastwards, and mingling with the Mongolians along the coasts of China, gave rise to the Chinese of the coasts, (not inland) and also to the family which now sits on the Dragon Throne of China.

· The Iranian sub-race, the third: led by Zarathushtra, went forth northwards and westwards, settling down for the most part in Afghanistan and Persia, the great Prophet dwelling in this latter country. Some wandered as far as Arabia and then into Egypt, intermarrying there with the Egyptian Atlanteans. Both sub-races found the Fourth Round people they settled among to be worshippers of Surya, the Sun, the priests bearing the name of Magi . These Magi claimed to have come from Shakudvipa, or Shvetadvipa, the White Island. This was the Holy City, Shamballah, now the Gobi Desert. Taught by the Instructors of the Aryo-Semitics, these Empires followed Saboeanism, the worship of the Beings who rule the celestial bodies, the "Star-Angels," and the Chaldean worship rose to a splendid being of wisdom and purity, the Magi of Chaldea being astronomers and astrologers, versed profoundly in the science of the celestial bodies, and guiding the State by advice, based on a study of the stars.

Zarathushtra, the first of 14 Zarathushras, forbade the worship of the Star-Angels, in consequence of the abuses which had arisen in connection with it which had led to the Deluge, and he gave them Fire as the sole permissible symbol of Deity. The Magi were followers more of chemistry than of astronomy, partly in consequence of its value in agriculture to which the Iranian sub-race was specially devoted. This led to a great development among them of alchemy, and many traces may be found in Egypt of their influence in this direction.

· The Keltic sub-race, the fourth: Led by Orpheus, migrated westwards, beyond the track of its fore-runners, first peopling Greece with the later Greeks, and then spreading over Italy, northwards over France, still more northwards into the old Atlantean lands of Ireland and Scotland, and peopling also the younger land of England. It is interesting to notice how the familiar symbology of the Dragon and the Serpent, as names for high Initiates, appears among all these closely related peoples. The Hierophants of Babylon and of Egypt, the Druids, the Phoenicians, are all sons of the Dragon, or Serpents. The symbol came down from Atlantis, even from Lemura, and has ever been preserved, down to the Fifth Round and in Mexico, and scattered over America, it recurs, one of the universal symbols, belonging to the early Teachers of humanity.

· The Teutonic sub-race, the fifth: also migrating westwards, occupied all Central Europe, and is now spreading over the world.

I don't know what the Out of Africa lobby will make of all that! But it will thrill the Out of Siberia lobby!

Ishtar wrote:I don't know whether to believe, partly because there is no evidence to support it either way, but also because I believe that myth is not history in itself, although it can inform us about history.

But it is an interesting theory and, judging by the direction you seem to be going in, you will get there sooner or later - so why not make it sooner?

Thanks. I'm not altogether sure where I am going with this other than explore and insist, like the flood, it is another of those universal myths which cross all cultural boundaries and speak of an idyllic period in human history when demi-gods ruled.

I have come across much about the "A" word in researching this and confess, because of the woo associated with it, I nearly instinctively dismiss it. And the Indian mythologies of ages (yudas) are obviously flawed (well I should clarify and say our interpretation of them are flawed) because the age of mankind often extends into the past well beyond what science is telling us. I still think the Indian tales have given me some new insights in how to look at time reckoning in different ways. For example the concept of the half year when the sun is traveling north of the equinox is "day" and when south, "night". This "day" and "night" being 24 hours in the age of the "gods" - i.e. 1 human year = 1 god day. These are things which give insights into how to read impossibly long reigns, life-times, ages, etc in different ways. The reign a pre-flood sumerian king and apply the inverse of the god-day rule and you start to see a much more 'reasonable" period of time.

Most cultures are placing the age of the demi-gods at a time preceding a great catastrophe in which few humans survived. And it obviously took place within the collective consciousness of human culture so I doubt it happened 40,000 years ago or so.

I agree myths are not history but I believe often they are born in actual history and then are allegorised as a way to explain the how and why of history. Why did the flood happen daddy? Well the gods where angry because of the great amount of noise humans were making on the earth. Reading between the lines a picture of the past emerges.

An idealized picture.

Although I can’t say whether or not I agree with Blavatsky (mainly because I don’t know), at least she has addressed the question about ‘who was ancient man and how did he think?’

As the boundary gets pushed back and back in our thinking about how old man actually is – according to some criteria, it could be seven million years – we should be addressing these questions.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/ ... uest_x.htm

And with the recent conclusions that the incredibly skilfully executed European cave paintings - some 36,000 years old - were not painted by HSS but by Neanderthals, we can no longer view Magdelanian man as a sort of Planet of the Apes savage who could barely rub two flints together. In fact, maybe it’s a sort of racism to regard him in this way.

On top of that, we know that the earth is about 4 billion years old, but we’re still not absolutely sure when or how the continents were formed. The theory of continental drift has only relatively recently been totally accepted, due to the discovery of plate tectonics. And some research from a few years ago even turned that thinking on its head when hafnium-zircon crystals, a mineral as ancient as the earth, were found in some hills in Western Australia.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 180831.htm

So for probably the first time in thousands of years, we are middle of one huge gigantic DON’T KNOW. Religion is no longer pretending to have all the answers, and the scientists are still looking. One theory is no sooner accepted than it is overtaken by another - e.g. Out of Africa.

For that reason, I believe, it’s important to keep an open mind. And if we want to refer to a place that existed long ago, where our seven millon year old man may have lived, we’ve got to call it something, so why not Atlantis? After all, it was good enough for Plato!