Archaeologica.org

Cognito wrote:

I will take a leap by stating that any hominid embarking on a boat voyage for the first time will invoke the protection of the gods before casting off.

And then so will we, for our voyage of the Dawn Treader across the Quantum Sea - and not just for protection. We also need the blessings of the gatekeepers, so that they will open the doors of our perception and understanding.

I bow to the gods of the four directions.

To the East, the red dawn air
Sighing over the South China Seas
Blow the nomad trade winds
Along the Silk Road, and please
Gust in over the Bay of Bengal
And the swirling pyres of Varanasi,
Through the temples of Tibet
And the spiced Vedic lees.
Bring Paralda’s sweet sylphs
To inspire our creativity.

To the West, the deep Atlantic
Heaves and tosses the merrows,
The nymphs and the undines
In their high waves and farrows.
Bring up from the Necksa’s feet
That purest of aqua cold.
Sail it fast over the Irish sea,
And across the Menai roll
To wash away our pain and fear
And heal our troubled souls.

To the North, soil of our minds
In the blue melting glaciers
Birthing borates from ice
Under the Borealis, the stars
Circling like glittering brides.
Roll your satyrs and sylvestres
Through the bleak Calanish stones,
Over the glens, brooks and rivers,
To the bosom of the North Downs
Who feeds our immortal souls.

To the South, cast your castanets
And smouldering salamanders.
Show your red lipped, red hipped skies
Your sultry, dusky sundowners.
When the frangipani and mimosa
Whisper the air with exotic aroma
And the heart promises ‘Soon’,
Give us the southern comfort,
The tango and the wild fandango
To spark our dancing shoes.

Ishtar © 2006

I just think it is a stretch for some guy to look at a floating log and say..."me ride log...me cross river."


I'm no physicist but my recollection of "quantum theory" is that it has to do with atoms.

Not logs.


Or boats.

Min

What do you think boats and logs are made of, if not atoms?

But more importantly, it was at the stage when the guy thought "I need to use that log to help me cross this river" that he entered the quantum. All thought is sub-atomic (smaller than atoms) and thus quantum, and that's the point.

At first, it may have just been a simple thought, like the one about the log.

But as man's cognition progressed, he was able to visualise (within the quantum realm of his thoughts) more and more sophisticated, sleeker and faster vessels, that he learned to bring into 'actuality', into the Newtonian realm. But every single one, from the simplest dug-out to the most sophisticated liner, started off in one and the same place. It started off in someone's imagination - in the realm of sub-atomic thoughts that don't obey Newtonian laws but Quantum ones.

Thus this is a triumph of the Quantum:

What do you think boats and logs are made of, if not atoms?

19th century sailors did not know their ships were made from atoms, Ish, let alone Holocene sailors. I think you are projecting modern knowledge back to antiquity which is always shaky.

Minimalist wrote:

What do you think boats and logs are made of, if not atoms?

19th century sailors did not know their ships were made from atoms, Ish, let alone Holocene sailors. I think you are projecting modern knowledge back to antiquity which is always shaky.

Min, they didn't have to know!

Their ships were still were made up of atoms that obeyed Newtonian principles, whether these old tars knew it or not.

Otherwise, you'd have had levitating pirate ships flying around the Caribbean!

I agree. I'm not the one asserting that they needed a PH. D. in physics to note that a log floats.

Minimalist wrote:I agree. I'm not the one asserting that they needed a PH. D. in physics to note that a log floats.

Neither am I.

Then what are you asserting? I don't follow your drift ...(no pun intended!).

I feel like I'm trying to sail into the wind, so let's try and close haul it:

You and I are talking via our computers although we haven't a clue in hell how it works. I may know a little more than you about html coding and websites and stuff ... but I still don't know how that coding gets us to how we can talk like this - and neither do you. (FM might of course).

Same same.

The reason we can talk to each other is because some clever geeks have figured out how to apply some scientific laws that have existed from the beginning of time to these machines we're typing into. But just because they have only recently discovered them didn't mean that those same laws didn't exist before. In fact, they would have to have done as scientific laws are fixed and stable and don't just appear overnight.

So in order to talk, you and I go into something we've come to call cyberspace, where all these scientific laws apply and have always existed.

And in order to think or visualise or imagine, we go into what we've come to call the quantum world, which is where all these other scientific laws apply that have always existed.

But to talk and think, we didn't need to know about those laws, even though they are in operation.

So in order for our first man to cognise the concept of our boat, he needed to enter the quantum realm although, of course, he didn't need to know he was entering the quantum realm ...which is why he didn't need a PhD to do it.

I hope that helps, but I've probably muddied the waters even further (oh dear, no pun intended there either).


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That bmw-oracle tri is a real kick butt craft!
(I don't know that we can even call it a "boat.")

I would suggest that Newton was and observer more than an inventor.

kbs2244 wrote:That bmw-oracle tri is a real kick butt craft!
(I don't know that we can even call it a "boat.")

I would suggest that Newton was and observer more than an inventor.

Of course. Newton discovered a law that already existed.

If he had invented it, that would have made him God.



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It started here....(It's all kb's fault!)

Ish:

The question we are trying to answer about your two shaman’s visiting each other telepathically is how did they get to where they were physically?

Two guys smoking a funny cigarette (or whatever they used) didn't have to know squat about quantum theory to get stoned!

Minimalist wrote:It started here....(It's all kb's fault!)

Ish:

The question we are trying to answer about your two shaman’s visiting each other telepathically is how did they get to where they were physically?

Two guys smoking a funny cigarette (or whatever they used) didn't have to know squat about quantum theory to get stoned!

That's right!

You don't have to know how a scientific law works in order to benefit from it.

So the Neanderthal guy thinking about how that log is going to get him across the river doesn't have to know that his thoughts exist in the quantum realm.

But it is relevant for us to know about, and to discuss, the quantum realm here because we're examining the origin of cognition, which begins in the quantum realm and thus has different properties to something that exists in the Newtonian world.





So it wasn't KB's fault at all. He was right on topic.


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Ishtar wrote:

Minimalist wrote:It started here....(It's all kb's fault!)

Ish:

The question we are trying to answer about your two shaman’s visiting each other telepathically is how did they get to where they were physically?

Two guys smoking a funny cigarette (or whatever they used) didn't have to know squat about quantum theory to get stoned!

That's right!

You don't have to know how a scientific law works in order to benefit from it.

So the Neanderthal guy thinking about how that log is going to get him across the river doesn't have to know that his thoughts exist in the quantum realm.

But it is relevant for us to know about, and to discuss, the quantum realm here because we're examining the origin of cognition, which begins in the quantum realm and thus has different properties to something that exists in the Newtonian world.





So it wasn't KB's fault at all. He was right on topic.


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All -

Particle.

Wave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality

This is a pretty good precis.

Of particular interest is

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which

Effectively establishes just how two Shamans,

Supposedly isolate in the physical world can

Instantaneously travel together, or visit

A location remote from both.

Now, throw one more factor into the mix.

Everything we perceive as a physical

Object, Being or System possesses cognition;

i.e., possesses both quantum identity and activity.

The incredible extent to which we have systematically

Denied this is well reflected in many of the threads on this forum.

I posted this thread, among other reasons,

To further the process of getting out this

Cognitive tar-pit of denial.

One last thing, which is a funny/bleak vignette

Of just how we perceive.

I've been spending this week with one of our 50 meter clients

Working out the details of his boat.

We use a pretty sophisticated 3d (computer) modeling program,

Which, by manipulation of the mouse, can show any portion of

The boat from any angle of view.

We project that against a viewing screen on the wall

Of the conference room.

We were looking at a section view of a guest cabin head vanity

Because the sink the client wanted was too big

And interfered with the upper drawers on either side of the sink.

My engineer was rotating the sectional view of the vanity

To see just how much the interference was.

The client, a somewhat impatient person, kept

Leaning to the left

To see "around the corner" on the screen

Because Ron hadn't rotated the view far enough

To expose the detail we were considering.


Think about this in light

Of the above.

....Talk about Plato's cave .......

It sent chills down my spine.


hoka hey


john

All -

One more note, about a pioneer

From the philosophical/mathematical side.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/rlubbock/ANW.html

There will be a pop quiz @ 7:00 pm Pacific Time

Tomorrow night.


j

You lost me, John.....but if Ish wants to attribute the whole process of human thought to this then I submit it started long before boats. The first time someone picked up a pointy stick and realized that it would make a neat spear would seem to be a good point.

Something like: "This better than my hand." For that matter, what of fire?

Animals run away from it for the most part. What genius decided to go in for a closer look?

Minimalist wrote:You lost me, John.....but if Ish wants to attribute the whole process of human thought to this then I submit it started long before boats. The first time someone picked up a pointy stick and realized that it would make a neat spear would seem to be a good point.

Something like: "This better than my hand." For that matter, what of fire?

Animals run away from it for the most part. What genius decided to go in for a closer look?

BINGO!

By George, I think he's got it!

But sweetheart, it's not just me attributing the whole process of human thought to the quantum - I'm merely pointing out a well recognised fact.

It gives me quite a chuckle that when I mention something you don't know about, you assume I must have made it up.

Right next ...Did you know that if an apple falls from a tree, it cannot fall back up again? Yep. Gravity. I just made that up too!



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