Archaeologica.org

"What's funny about the current Clovis over strike tech speculation is that it has to be "Solutrean",

Solutrean type points have been found in France/Spain and Cactus Hill, Virginia. They did not fly there by themselves.


I was watching a rerun of "Journey to 10,000 BC" and some guy was dismissing the Solutrean connection by suggesting that had they been there there would be European type genetic markers found.

Unless, of course, those few scattered hunters were blasted out of existence by that comet that it seems we all agree hit North America.
I imagine the immediate effects of such a strike would have been nothing less than earth-shattering.

E.P. you wrote, “Paul, you need to see John L. Sorenson and Martin H. Riasch, Pre-Columbian Contacts Across the Ocean, An Annotated Bibliography, entry M-143, 2 African watercraft were washing up each year in South America for a hundred year period during post-conquest times.”

That’s interesting anecdotal evidence for the peopling of the Americas from Africa and Southern Europe. Over the deca-millenniums people used watercraft. In support of this idea, Science ran an article of human tools found in Flores 800 tya as evidence of a watercraft being used to transport a population from Africa far back. IN: Ann Gibbons, Ancient Island Tools Suggest Homo erectus Was a Seafarer, 279:5357, pp. 1635-1637, Issue of Science, 13 Mar 1998.

And Minimalist’s map from Dec. 26 shows the permanent currents circulating between EurAfrica (Africa and Europe) and the Americas.



[EurAfrica to the Americas]: The scenario that excites me is that given the hundreds (thousands?) of daily boat-bound fishermen from tens of thousands of years back along the shores of EurAfrica (and the regular occurrence of storms along those tens of thousands of miles of shoreline) that storm-captured vessels must regularly whisk fishermen from EurAfrican shores and deposit them on American shores; and vice versa. The Solutreans may have made it from Europe to America this way.

[Japan to the Americas]: The following is not related to the purpose of this thread. But, regarding the peopling of the American Pacific, the same dynamics of nature acting on human activity that brought Africans to the Americas is on record of having brought Japanese to the Americas (which makes an interesting scenario for the peopling of the Americas from prehistoric times. I know most here are familiar with the following information. I’d like to include it in this post, though:

The plain fact is that due to natural currents, both trans-Pacific and trans-Atlantic contacts were inevitable, if not by design, with certainty by accident. In the one century from 1775 to 1875 at least 20 Japanese junks were involuntarily driven by storms and currents to landing points from the Aleutian Islands to Mexico, an average of 1 watercraft every 5 years. (Robert Heine-Geldern,

that storm-captured vessels must regularly whisk fishermen from EurAfrican shores and deposit them on American shores; and vice versa.

But would the crews be alive when they arrived? Ancient shipping in the Med was not designed for long voyages. The ships usually hugged the coast and put into shore at night for water/food as well as security. A ship caught in a storm and driven westward would still take weeks to cross the ocean and it just seems that the crew would be dead by the time it washed up on the South or Central American coast.

Further, let's assume for the sake of argument, that the crews were able to gather rainwater and survive. They would have to know that in order to catch a return breeze/current that they would have to sail north or south first. That seems counter-intuitive for people who were concerned about returning to the east from whence they came. The plain fact is that for the 700 years that Rome dominated commerce in the Western Med, we have not a single hint that anyone discovered a new land to the West.

Columbus' accomplishment was not that he got there but rather that he found a way to get back and publicize the news.

Now, moving south we get to the Dakar-Natal route which even during WWII was a vital route for aircraft making the hop across the Atlantic at its narrowest point. We know from the Pacific that large, outrigger-type boats made long-distance voyages. Far longer than the 1800 mile Natal-Dakar hop. It is simply not that outlandish an idea that people could have crossed via that route in antiquity.

Minimalist. You wrote, "But would the crews be alive when they arrived?"

The overwhelming majority would not. Yet, I remember reading five years back about African fishermen being swept away by trade winds and arriving almost dead to South America. Almost dead, but not dead. Tens of thousand of miles of coast line; tens of thousands of years; tens of thousands of fishemen along the coast daily; tens of thousands of storms.

Dealing with such huge numbers over such large amounts of time all but insure that vast numbers would be swept from one side of the Atlantic to the other and that while the lion's share would perish, many, over the decamillenniums, would not. I'd say the law of averages is greatly in its favor.

Yet, we have historic reports of many making it from not only Africa to the Americas, but from Japan. Those familiar with the subject (I'm not) could likely speak of many such more statistics.

I wouldn't expect a fisherman, who goes out for a day and gets swept up in a storm, to be equipped for long term survival on the ocean in an open boat. However, if I started off the coast of Senegal I would expect to have more of a chance of getting across than if I started from Portugal.

The trick, as always, is getting back. Because once someone gets back to report then it is easier to imagine an expedition being sent out. Ferdinand and Isabella were really buying a pig in a poke the first time....and sent a mere three ships accordingly. But Columbus' second voyage was an order of magnitude larger because the element of the unknown had been removed.

I'll be honest with you. In general I like your idea but one thing bothers me. Why is there no record of mass disease as a result of African contact as there is with European contact? Africa was not completely cut off from Europe or Asia. Greco-Roman or Phoenician traders had explored the West Coast. Arab traders were active on the East Coast and really had only followed in the footsteps of the Egyptians, Romans, Byzantines, etc.

I recall reading somewhere that one of the main driving factors behind the African slave trade was the Spanish realization that the native-americans had the impertinence to keep dying on their new masters before they could get any work out of them. The Africans were considered "hardier." To me this implies a degree of immunity existing but that would have required prior exposure. So, let's cut to the chase and agree that there was trans-Atlantic contact between Africa and South America in the past. Why do we not see the effects of rampant disease that we see later in the aftermath of Spanish contact?

Minimalist. You write, "Why is there no record of mass disease as a result of African contact."

If there are the three great races (White, African, Mongul) and all subsequent peoples being combinations and permutations of them, then Africans were likely pretty early settlers. There are thousands of pictures of cave and rock art in Brazil of black, brown, and red figures more-or-less identical to that of Africa. Perhaps there was no record of disease affecting the earliest populations because they were African. But, lots of Africans died because of imported disease. There's a record of that.

However, there is a record of pretty severe disease in South America among some tribes in the BC that was preserved in their rock art. I don't know what relevance that has. Perhaps some. Perhaps not. I don't know.

However, there is a record of pretty severe disease in South America among some tribes in the BC that was preserved in their rock art. I don't know what relevance that has. Perhaps some. Perhaps not. I don't know.

Paul, call me "Min," (easier to type.)

What troubles me most of all is that the death toll from the Spanish contact was such that these populations apparently had no immunity to anything. If there had been earlier disease-laden contact, it just seems that there should have been some residual immunity at least.

We're talking 90% depopulation here. That dwarfs even the bubonic plague.

Wouldn't African contact in the Americas also show up as some trace level in the DNA analysis of Indians? Is the DNA statistics large enough for conclusions on this one way or the other?

Isn’t most of the DNA tracing done on the female side?
I would not expect too many ladies out on fishing trips.
Or even on colonizing trips, if they knew there were women at the destination.
The male DNA would get diluted.

Minimalist wrote:I'll be honest with you. In general I like your idea but one thing bothers me. Why is there no record of mass disease as a result of African contact as there is with European contact?

Perhaps its due to the difference in immune systems that are geared to fighting bacteria vs systems that are better at fending off parasites. i can't remember if that idea was in 1491 or if i got it from a link here, but it is at least reasonable.

[/quote]

kbs2244 wrote:Isn’t most of the DNA tracing done on the female side?
I would not expect too many ladies out on fishing trips.
Or even on colonizing trips, if they knew there were women at the destination.
The male DNA would get diluted.

DNA tracing is done equally commonly on the male side.

Sure it would get diluted, but a large enough sample can set limits. Also, if the Africans were kings, they would generally have a very large number of offspring.

As nothing fishy seems to be reported from the DNA analysis, plus the excellent point on the lack of disease resistance, it seems that this theory does not hold water, so to speak.

The 9th of 17 known Monarchs: TODAY’S MONARCH: King Yaxuun B’alam-IV, 752-768 AD, Yaxchilan, Chiapas, Mexico.


After the first page below will be added the ninth of 17 monarchs. The pictures can be seen below if your browser allows it. Otherwise, they can be seen at the link.

BRIEF BIOGRAPHY OF KING Yaxuun B’alam: Yaxuun B'alam IV (his name means Bird Jaguar) was the son of and successor to Itzamnaaj B'alam. Yaxchilán (meaning Green Stones - for its emeralds), reached its zenith under Itzmnaaj and his successes were continued by Yaxuun B’alam IV. Yaxchilán's alliegiences and sphere of influence reached as far as Tikal and Palenque under them.

INTRODUCTION TO PAGE, KING'S LIST, 25 AFRICAN-MAYAN ANALOGIES:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... archs.html

King Yaxuun B’alam, 15th monarch of Yaxchilan, Chiapas, Mexico:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-09.html


Note: A comprehensive listing of the monarchs shown appears at this link following their introduction:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... index.html

E.P. You wrote, "The other thing you need to do is to write to me for a copy of "Amazing Stories."

Can you tell me how I can get a copy?

Thanx in advance,

Minimalist wrote:

"What's funny about the current Clovis over strike tech speculation is that it has to be "Solutrean",

Solutrean type points have been found in France/Spain and Cactus Hill, Virginia. They did not fly there by themselves.

I was watching a rerun of "Journey to 10,000 BC" and some guy was dismissing the Solutrean connection by suggesting that had they been there there would be European type genetic markers found.

Unless, of course, those few scattered hunters were blasted out of existence by that comet that it seems we all agree hit North America.
I imagine the immediate effects of such a strike would have been nothing less than earth-shattering.

Hi , Min, Cactus Hill is right up the road from where I used to live - it was a local site for me, but then Ernie Welsh had boxes of points from his farm at the junction of the Rapidan and Rappahannock rivers, about 5 miles south of Cactus Hill.

Right about the not flying part - take a look at the Ocanochee and Yuchi ethonographic studies. But we don't know if the Cactus Hill folks were them or Iroqouis who had adopted their technology.

Those people may have survived the mammoth killing impacts - Cactus Hill was abandoned when the people were hit by European diseases in 8,350 BCE. Those further south survived.

What did most of the Savanah River populations in was the Rio Cuarto impacts in 2,360 BE and and impact mega-tsunami sometime around 1050-1150 BCE. European conquest killed the rest.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

kbs2244 wrote:Isn’t most of the DNA tracing done on the female side?
I would not expect too many ladies out on fishing trips.
Or even on colonizing trips, if they knew there were women at the destination.
The male DNA would get diluted.

You're mistaking later fishing technologies/social roles for the fishing technologies/social roles of very early man. Think instead of an entire family or two on a large boat, and many boats together.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas