Neanderthal DNA

[War Arrow]

Although this might not add anything to the subject, it might be worth pointing out that a general rule of 'the higher you climb, the further you fall' seems to apply to much of the history of life on this planet. The more successful a species becomes (in terms of progressive (for the sake of argument) development, thus ruling out cockroaches and such like) the more it opens itself up to things going wrong. Just look at the dinosaurs, or (disputably) the ediacarans. If the Neanderthal extinction followed a similar pattern then perhaps they were in some ways more developed or better adapted (relative terms I know) than HSS. The disease thing seems a likely idea, although it might depend upon the size of the neanderthal population (globally speaking) and the general diversity of their genetic recipe as a whole.

[Cognito]

The disease thing seems a likely idea, although it might depend upon the size of the neanderthal population (globally speaking) and the general diversity of their genetic recipe as a whole.

Exposure to new diseases would explain why Neanderthals did not survive initial contact well, but does not explain coexistence with Cro Magnons for any extended length of time after immunity was developed. Unless, as Min pointed out earlier, an initial population reduction was achieved that resulted in a slow, downward spiral towards extinction. A lack of contribution to the HSS genepool indicates that any hybrids were sterile.

[Beagle]

This might be fun - I believe that I can show (via articles from respected sources) that HNS was equal to or more advanced than HSS in areas of cognition, abstract thinking, technology, and art.

I have to go about my daily business , but will be back later today. Thanks Min. for starting this debate all over again (sarcasm).

[Minimalist]

You're welcome!

[marduk]

I believe that I can show

didn't Hitler say something similar when proposing to his generals that they invade Russia

[Charlie Hatchett]

Did Neanderthal Really Vanish, or are Many, Now Living, Part Neanderthal?

There is a new claim that Neanderthals and modern humans interbred in Europe. Reanalysis of the human remains recovered at the site of Pestera Muierii cave of southern Romania. The skull displays both modern (flat face, lack of pronounced brow ridges, etc.) and Neanderthal (an occipital bun, Neanderthal-like jaw) traits. Trinkaus believes it is another example of a Neanderthal/modern human hybrid that has been radiocarbon dated to 30,000 years ago

http://www.nature.com/news/2006/061030/ ... 030-3.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6099422.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061030/hl ... einterbred

[Minimalist]

Okay....hang with me on this one.

This is on Michelle's list of headlines for today.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/di ... sies_x.htm

Scientists using modern techniques have concluded that the French settlers died from scurvy, which is caused by a lack of vitamin C.

The article has no relevance to Neaderthal at all but the question which popped into my head is as follows:

If vitamin C ( which mainly comes from fruits and vegetables ) is so important that the lack of it can cause disease and death - how come early man ( both HNS and HSS eating meat in Ice Age Europe) weren't done in by scurvy?

Any nutritionists in the house?

[Cognito]

If vitamin C ( which mainly comes from fruits and vegetables ) is so important that the lack of it can cause disease and death - how come early man ( both HNS and HSS eating meat in Ice Age Europe) weren't done in by scurvy?

Min, early humans foraged and lived a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Yes, they ate meat which they hunted or scavenged, but they also ate fish which they caught, fruit, nuts, berries and other vegetable matter which they harvested from naturally growing resources. They supplemented thier diet with foodstuffs from a wide variety of other sources such as honey, grubs and insects. Their diet was similar to modern day hunter-gatherers and didn't include agricultural products such as cereal crops, dairy produce, high fat meat and refined sugar. There is more than enough vitamin C in the Pliestocene diet to prevent scurvy and many other diseases.

[Minimalist]

I can see that in the summer/fall, Cogs.

It's the winter/early spring period that is giving me some trouble.

[Charlie Hatchett]

I can see that in the summer/fall, Cogs.

It's the winter/early spring period that is giving me some trouble.

How about roots?

Brainstorming...???

[Minimalist]

I did a search for "vitamin c sources for neanderthal" and got quite a few hits.

This seems reasonable...at least, I can't see them wasting many parts of a kill.

http://history.enotes.com/peoples-chron ... prehistory

75,000 B.C.: nutrition
Humans require larger caloric intake than many of their fellow creatures to meet the demands of their larger brains. They cannot digest the long-chain carbohydrates, cellulose, lignins, and tannins in the plant tissues consumed by other species, their excessive protein needs are dictated in part by the fact that they cannot synthesize as many amino acids as some other mammals can, and—because of a metabolic defect (lack of the enzyme L-gulonalactone oxidase in the liver) shared with anthropoid apes, guinea pigs, a certain fruit-eating bat, some insect groups, and some birds that include the red-vented bulbul—they must have dietary sources of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) that most other animals, birds, and insects can synthesize. Without enough vitamin C (abundant not only in citrus fruits, capsicums [peppers] and cabbage but also in animal organ meats), humans cannot synthesize collagen, the adhesive protein substance that holds cells together, and without collagen their wounds do not heal, old scars may burst open, and they may exhibit symptoms of scurvy (see 80 A.D.).

[Cognito]

I can see that in the summer/fall, Cogs. It's the winter/early spring period that is giving me some trouble.

Understood, Min. The same problem occurs today above the artic circle. However, raw meat and blubber will prevent scurvy. There was nothing preventing ancient people from storing foods for the winter, including herbs, nuts, dried fish, dried fruits, etc. All great sources of vitamin C. Quite frankly, if it came down to it, I can picture an ancient version of Charlie sucking on roots!

[Minimalist]

I'm not touching that line.


Charlie has all those sharp rocks.

[Charlie Hatchett]

I can picture an ancient version of Charlie sucking on roots

Wait...what the hell you saying, boy....?

Seriously, the organs ((liver, pancreas(actually a popular TexMex BBQ item), Intestines (Tripas-Again, TexMex BBQ)) makes sense. BBQ'd, it all tastes good!! Mesquite, Oak and Pecan are my favorite woods for flavor.

[Cognito]

Wait...what the hell you saying, boy....?

Sorry Charlie ... you left yourself open for that one. All kidding aside, it appears that pleistocene diets were better than neolithic:

http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-21- ... s-us-sick/