Philo's guide to decoding the Hebrew Bible

[seeker]

I think all the Gnostic stories were various developments, in one way or another, on the teachings of Pythagorus and Plato.

Freke and Gandy say: "Plato's Timaeus, the most cryptic and mystical of all Plato's dialogues, was composed from Pythagorean texts bought from a Pythagorean of southern Italy called Timaeus. The influence of this text on Gnostic speculation was profound. As Layton writes: 'The formation of Gnostic myth ultimately drew on Platonist interpretation of the myth of creation in Plato's Timaeus, as combined with the Book of Genesis.'"

And it is in Timaeus that we first find the Son of Man 'suspended crosswise across the universe".

True enough but even Pythagorus attributes some of his theological education to the magi. I think when you dig into Gnostic dirt you find Zoroastrian seeds (that was terrible, I admit it).

[kbs2244]

BTW
I do think there is something to the concept of the “Orthodox” church downplaying the role and importance of women in early Christianity.
In spite of Paul’s “not allowing them to TEACH in the congregation,” they are often referred to as effective PREACHERS to those outside it.

[Minimalist]

And that he had a three and a half year ministry in the 30 AD time frame.

When did he die, kb?

[Ishtar]

No Ish,
I certainly do believe in the fact that Jesus lived a human life.
And that he had a three and a half year ministry in the 30 AD time frame.
.

Why?

[Ishtar]

True enough but even Pythagorus attributes some of his theological education to the magi. I think when you dig into Gnostic dirt you find Zoroastrian seeds (that was terrible, I admit it).

Yes, but Pythagorus was also taught by the Egyptians, the Brahmins and the Rabbis.

Seeker, please show me where Gnosticism is influenced by the Magi. I'm not doubting you...I'm sure you have good reason to say it ... it's just that I don't know enough about the Magis to see it without having it pointed out to me.

[Ishtar]

Min, thank you for the link to Essenes pages. That'll keep me quiet for a bit!

[Minimalist]

Min, thank you for the link to Essenes pages. That'll keep me quiet for a bit!

I figured.

[kbs2244]

From my research I would put his death on Nisan 14, of 32 AD, about 3:00 PM
This was about as illegal as it gets under the Law, as it was Passover day.
But they had him and didn’t want to wait for something to go wrong with their plans.
I don’t have the exact month and day on our calendar but it would have been in the spring and a Friday.

As to why do I believe he lived?
I guess it comes down to the fact that I think there is a Supreme Being and that the Bible really is the “Word of God.”
Thus nothing in it is untrue.
Aside from that, even with his very little mention on official histories, I cannot believe that a movement that influenced millions of people, challenged strong governments by its pacifisms, and in the end, created the concept of “Western Civilization” (“Roman” as opposed to “Eastern”) did not have an originator.
Somebody, somewhere, had to get the ball rolling.

[Minimalist]

From my research I would put his death on Nisan 14, of 32 AD, about 3:00 PM

According to Matthew, Luke and Josephus you are incorrect.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I think there is a Supreme Being and that the Bible really is the “Word of God.”

That's faith and you are welcome to it. It has nothing to do with history.

[seeker]

Yes, but Pythagorus was also taught by the Egyptians, the Brahmins and the Rabbis.

Seeker, please show me where Gnosticism is influenced by the Magi. I'm not doubting you...I'm sure you have good reason to say it ... it's just that I don't know enough about the Magis to see it without having it pointed out to me.

No problem Ish

Let's start with creation. Ahura Mazda creates a perfect creation according to Zoroastrianinsm but that perfect creation is purely a spiritual one. Ahriman corrupts creation by making the material world and making it so that we can no longer perceive the perfect spiritual world. This set in motion a battle over ages between the two, one which Ahura Mazda must win because he has foresight.

The notion in Zoroastrianism was that at the end of each age (3000 years) a shayosant, or saviour, would appear, born of a virgin, to awaken in mankind the perception of the spiritual world which would release us from the material world and destroy evil.

Of course I'm simplifying a lot, there is a whole dramatic good vs evil battle with judging and blood etc but at the end it is the rejection of the material world and the return to a purely spiritual existance that is supposed as the salvation of mankind.

If we are talking about Plato the whole Demiurge with his archons comes directly from Ahriman with his evil Angra Mainyu. Likewise Plato's supposition that the material world is merely a corrupted copy of a higher level spiritual plane is clasic Zoroastrianism. Pythagoras also advocated a lot of the same kinds of purity rites that are found in Zoroastrianism

[Forum Monk]

Hey ...wait up slippery boy!

“While the core theologies of each have some common elements (as I have said all along)”.

No you haven’t said all along! In fact, you've been saying the opposite all along ... that their core theologies are totally different! This is your first admission of such a polnt. But thank you and well done... you’ve got that bit finally.

Guess I'm feeling a bit sensitive this evening, and quite miffed that in spite of all your rebukes about not reading your posts you have the gaul to say this. It is quite obvious, you are not really reading or listening as well.

Could Abraham be from the Vedas?

Code: Select all

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:48 am
Ishtar, it seems the church has absconded with christianity more than a thousand years ago and usurped its hegemony over basic principles upon which it was founded. Fear and intolerance have replaced love and forgiveness. Pity really. I think christianity was never a belief system for the masses and it remains true today. Only a very small segment of people understand it, in my opinion. 

There may actually be some fact to your belief that the relationship between christianilty and ancient mystery religions is real. At first I discounted this notion but now I am considering it more carefully. If I might turn a bit philosophical, perhaps they are all rooted in a common and central truth and each reveals certain characteristics of the true nature of existence. It is of course, a matter of debate (and often strife) over who has glimpsed the whole more completely.

Syro-Palestinian thread

Code: Select all

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:03 pm
Whether it borrowed elements from those beliefs which preceded it is arbitrary speculation and I can see your point how similar it is to other religions. 

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:17 pm
It can be argued that many early church fathers, mainstream and fringe alike, had elements similar in belief to gnostics. It does not make them gnostic.

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:04 pm
Lets face it there are commonalities in all belief systems since there is some basic common thinking in men

Philo Thread

Code: Select all

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:04 pm
No doubt you are correct: 1. salvation 2. Saviour 3. christ. three common elements in the POV of gnostics and chritians alike. BUT - the key is the relationship between the three...Many religions points of view had those basic elements

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:17 am
there is no evidence that because they contained similar elements they are connected

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:24 am
 have repeatedly acknowledged to you the presence of similar religous elements in other cultures. I don't need to refute it.

[seeker]

FM - Does getting mad about one of her points resolve any of the others or just distract?

[john]

All -

Wisdom is wisdom,

Which starts and ends with the individual,

not the political/religious heirarchy.

Period.


hoka hey


john

[Forum Monk]

So that leaves us with Polycarp. You say he was a follower of John the Apostle? Well, I guess it must be true then because the 4th century spin-meister Eusebius tells us that ...despite the fact that Polycarp never even mentions John. Hmmm, somehow I don't think so. Perhaps he was a follower of Hagred too...or Professor Dumbledore?

Polycarp lived in Turkey (which is a long way from Judaea) between 69 CE and 155 CE. The only attestation to him that can be counted on (Irananeus being a known forger) is his letter to the Phillippians which is dated 110 – 140 CE.

• Iraneus' letter to Florinus
  I can even describe the place where the blessed Polycarp used to sit and discourse-his going out, too, and his coming in-his general mode of life and personal appearance, together with the discourses which he delivered to the people; also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance.

• Iraneus' letter to Pope Victor
  And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points, they were at once well inclined towards each other [with regard to the matter in hand], not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant;

There is no evidence Irenaeus was a forger. Tell me how some one forges his own letters. Your continuous blow-off of early christian writing as forgeries is a convenient dismissal of anything with disturbs your case. Yet you fail to recognize the fact that blantant forgeries of that period of time completely undermines the reliability of the texts you use as well leaving you only with the modern interpretations of journalists using the same suspect texts.

As for your ridiculous rebuttal that we have stories of Harry Potter so I must think Harry Potter is real, it totally neglects the fact that these stories are being told to people who actually knew the protaganists and witnessed the events. You see, that's the difference between fiction and non-fiction, myth and non-myth. Its like trying to make up stories about Winston Churchill while your grand-parents are still alive. Its not going to propogate very far before someone says bull-crap. They never questioned the existance of Jesus because people were still around that had seen him and possibly talked with him.

As for links, do I really need to link the gnostic gosples?

• The Gospel of Philip
  Philip the apostle said, "Joseph the carpenter planted a garden because he needed wood for his trade. It was he who made the cross from the trees which he planted. His own offspring hung on that which he planted. His offspring was Jesus, and the planting was the cross."

• The Book of Thomas the Contender
  The secret words that the savior spoke to Judas Thomas which I, even I, Mathaias, wrote down, while I was walking, listening to them speak with one another.

• The Apocryphon of James
  ... the twelve disciples were all sitting together and recalling what the Savior had said to each one of them, whether in secret or openly, and putting it in books

• The Letter of Peter to Philip
  And Peter opened his mouth, he said to his (fellow) disciples, "Did our Lord Jesus, when he was in the body, show us everything? For he came down. My brothers, listen to my voice." And he was filled with a holy spirit. He spoke thus: "Our illuminator, Jesus, came down and was crucified. And he bore a crown of thorns. And he put on a purple garment. And he was crucified on a tree and he was buried in a tomb. And he rose from the dead. My brothers,

[Ishtar]

Guess I'm feeling a bit sensitive this evening, and quite miffed that in spite of all your rebukes about not reading your posts you have the gaul to say this. It is quite obvious, you are not really reading or listening as well.

Seriously, I am.

So let's both agree to listen to each other a little more from now on.