Archaeologica.org

The 10,500 BC thing comes up because of Bauval and his Orion fixation.

I suspect he's right about the model for the lay out of the Giza plateau but a lot of the rest of it, especially the "air shafts" does not make a great deal of sense.

ok so some guy came along and laid out the floorplans
and then forgot about it for 7000 years
yeah thats pretty likely isn't it

have you heard the one about the duck billed platypus and the bag of sand
thats funny too

Minimalist wrote:The 10,500 BC thing comes up because of Bauval and his Orion fixation.

I suspect he's right about the model for the lay out of the Giza plateau but a lot of the rest of it, especially the "air shafts" does not make a great deal of sense.

Cool. Other than trying to hold to that 10,500 BC timeline, I agree with what he said about the ancient Sahara.

That brings us to that short blurb called "Unseen Expectations". I'll look at that again and post later.

In this next short blurb, GH digresses to the earlier discussion regarding what he calls the "Civilizer Gods" like Osiris and Viracocha. Once again linking the Aymaran civilization of the Bolivian Altiplano to Egypt and the middle east.

Sticking to the 10,500 BC timeframe (Cayce started this I think), he describes this time as one of dramatic climate shifts, volcanic eruptions, floods, etc, etc. Whatever cataclysm or catastrophe occurred to create a global diaspora, I still believe it was in more recent times. But that's a smaller point, I think, than thinking that it didn't happen at all.

Regarding the beginning of Tiahuanaco, I'm now convinced that it is much older than orthodoxy states, but that's because of evidence that was unavailable to GH when he wrote this book.

So.....I've had some change of thought.

Regarding the beginning of Tiahuanaco, I'm now convinced that it is much older than orthodoxy states, but that's because of evidence that was unavailable to GH when he wrote this book

if youve got evidence then show it
otherwise its just speculation built on the word of a pseudohistorian
thats not very steady ground to build a supposition on at all

Once again linking the Aymaran civilization of the Bolivian Altiplano to Egypt and the middle east.

My father-in-law, of the Quechua tribe (Inca) and now RIP, was married to an Aymara woman. I know her quite well. She and her tribe are pure South American native ... no Egypt, no Middle East, no genetics extant to make such a claim.

no genetics extant to make such a claim.

GH did not make any genetic link between the two, nor do I.

But consider this scenario - if 50 Viking warriors got off their boat in America, and enjoyed the area greatly, they might decide to stay and intermingle with local natives. They would be able to exchange technology and culture with Native Americans, marry, and have childen.

Then today, considering that they were all males, there would be no mDNA evidence whatsoever. Just a what if....

Good point.


As I recall, 10,500 BC (or so) marked the lowest point in the sky for the constellation of Orion. Beginning a 26,000 year precessional cycle from that point ( The First Time? The time of the gods??) It rises for 13,000 years relative to the horizon before beginning the slow descent. Bauval wants us to believe that the Egyptians knew this because they were watching the skies as far back as the eleventh millenia BC... even though they didn't start building the pyramids until the 3'd millenia bc.)

Hancock theorizes some sort of secret society which maintained the knowledge for all those years but it is hard to envision any human enterprise succeeding for that long. We don't seem to have the stick-to-it-ivness for such long term projects.

Besides, in addition to the world wide flood myths there are other myths which were widespread. Many cultures had a notion of a time when the gods lived among men ( a Golden Age, if you will) and, as Von Daniken pointed out, the notion of a war in the heavens shows up in a lot of places, too.

Forgetting the war in the heavens for the moment, the idea of the gods living among men is somewhat novel. Only christians ever came up with a corporeal god...I think as a marketing technique, but that's just me. Most other religions are content to have their invisible man in the sky with just an occasional prophet (or huckster) showing up to pass the word along to the rubes.

Yet, supposedly primitive men in random places looked back to a time when lots of gods walked the earth. Interesting.

Minimalist wrote:Bauval wants us to believe that the Egyptians knew this because they were watching the skies as far back as the eleventh millenia BC... even though they didn't start building the pyramids until the 3'd millenia bc.)

Actually 10500bce is the 11th millenium. To perceive precession requires very precise record keeping over a period of centuries. Orion would move one degree every 72 years. I seriously doubt they understood, based strictly on observation that it was a cycle (i.e. circular motion) with a 26000 year period.

Besides, in addition to the world wide flood myths there are other myths which were widespread. Many cultures had a notion of a time when the gods lived among men ( a Golden Age, if you will) and, as Von Daniken pointed out, the notion of a war in the heavens shows up in a lot of places, too.

I don't think it is so unusal considering the wide-spread acceptance of ancestor worship.

EDIT:
Actually I need to modify my first statement a little because, Orion would not move 1 degree per 72 years. The equinox will slip 1 degree every 72 years. This translates to a much smaller movement of Orion. Obviously Orion is not going to move that much. The precssion circle is 47 degrees in diameter. Since the amount of perceived movement is a SINE function, for the first 4320 years after 10500bce, Orion would be moving in very small increments. Up until 6480 years after 10500 its motion would have increased, and thereafter it would decrease again. Right now, its apparent motion in 72 years is about the same as the egyptians would have seen it in 10500bce.

Actually I need to modify my first statement a little because, Orion would not move 1 degree per 72 years. The equinox will slip 1 degree every 72 years. This translates to a much smaller movement of Orion. Obviously Orion is not going to move that much. The precssion circle is 47 degrees in diameter. Since the amount of perceived movement is a SINE function, for the first 4320 years after 10500bce, Orion would be moving in very small increments. Up until 6480 years after 10500 its motion would have increased, and thereafter it would decrease again. Right now, its apparent motion in 72 years is about the same as the egyptians would have seen it in 10500bce.

yes thanks for simplifying that FM

yes thanks for simplifying that FM

Holy crap, FM ... that brought me back to high school and I think I have a headache! When we all get together to get down and party you might have to be left alone in the other room with your portable planetarium.

I already dimmed the lights where I am
anyone got any aspirin ?

Oh, sorry, you want simple. Ok. Let's forget the SINE function and linearize it. Its close enough for government work anyway.

Orion will move 47 degrees over 13000 years. That's equal to 0.0036 degrees per year. Way to small to see. So the inverse (years per degree) works out to: Orion will move 1 degree (perceptible with careful measurement) in 276.6 years. (linear average).

Actually, Bauval is talking about "up and down" relative to earth rather than "right to left" but he would certainly agree that it takes a long time of painstaking record keeping to note the change.

In fact, even if one allows for Hipparchus' having 'discovered' precession in the second century BC even our culture has not been around for much more than the one 2,160 span to move into the Age of Aquarius.

Hipparchus did it the same way we do, by computation not observation. Just because the Club says that the Egyptians could not do it that way does not make it true.

Up and down is what I'm talking about. Precession has no affect on left-right.

Whether or not the egyptians could calculate it: who knows? There's no evidence in their many written records. Especially before the 4th dynasty.