Archaeologica.org

You've got promise, lad.

I think we have a volunteer, gang!

I just finished watching a nice documentary on Arte Channel concerning the Nebra Disc ,an intriguing object which was found near Halle in Germany a few years ago which features amongst others a nice representation of the Plejades .It dates from about 1600 BC . Apparently it contains a lot of astronomical informations making it the first of its kind in history .
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rans.shtml .Halle is not too far from Bosnia after all ,well within trading distance of the period involved .Of course analysis of the disc made very clear it was manufactured near to the spot where it was discovered .But still a lesson that we should not dismiss fantastic claims too lightly . History is alive with fantastic discoveries .
Anybody having an ideawhy the Plejads were soimportant in so many different civilisations ?Perhaps it was just an easily recognizable constellation .Which tales and legends are associated with this starsystem ?

Very interesting, Rene.

This, though, bothers me.

The disc had been found in the same hole and had the same soil level as two swords. Swords of a very particular design. The idea was that the age of these swords and the disc could be fixed. By comparing them with similar objects that had been successfully carbon dated. So Meller examined the swords in minute detail, and then he compared those details with every known type of Bronze Age sword. Eventually he came across pictures of swords that looked exactly like those from the hoard, and the date was stunning.

Although they did hint at it later on there is far too great a tendency to rely on 'associated artifacts" when trying to date something. The worst example would be in grabbing a piece of charcoal for a C14 date and assuming that the fire dates the object. Thus, if a person built a fire near Stonehenge one cannot assume that the date of the fire is equivalent to the construction of the monument, as a rough example.

Here, the assumption that the person with the sword also made the disc is dubious. He could have been a warrior or pirate who simply stole the item and treasured it. The artifacts set the latest date for creation of the grave but who the hell knows when the disc was made?

Still, there are intriguing possibilities.

Minimalist wrote:Very interesting, Rene.

This, though, bothers me.

The disc had been found in the same hole and had the same soil level as two swords. Swords of a very particular design. The idea was that the age of these swords and the disc could be fixed. By comparing them with similar objects that had been successfully carbon dated. So Meller examined the swords in minute detail, and then he compared those details with every known type of Bronze Age sword. Eventually he came across pictures of swords that looked exactly like those from the hoard, and the date was stunning.

Although they did hint at it later on there is far too great a tendency to rely on 'associated artifacts" when trying to date something. The worst example would be in grabbing a piece of charcoal for a C14 date and assuming that the fire dates the object. Thus, if a person built a fire near Stonehenge one cannot assume that the date of the fire is equivalent to the construction of the monument, as a rough example.

Here, the assumption that the person with the sword also made the disc is dubious. He could have been a warrior or pirate who simply stole the item and treasured it. The artifacts set the latest date for creation of the grave but who the hell knows when the disc was made?

Still, there are intriguing possibilities.

Association/context is the only way they have of dating this object in this case. How would you suggest they do it, Bob? It gives an approximate date that it was buried so we know it's at least that old. In some cases that's the best we can do, currently. In future perhaps they'll find new methods.

It gives an approximate date that it was buried so we know it's at least that old.

Right, and that's all they know.

But then come the assumptions.........

There will always be assumptions. There's nothing you can do about that except to make sure that it is known that they are just assumptions. The lay public may take these assumptions as fact, but archaeologists know that they are just assumptions. As I am fond of saying, everything said in archaeology should be prefaced by the phrase; "as far as we can tell so far." How would you handle it, Bob?

I find it a little odd that they would measure out exactly 82 degrees around the circle (nevermind the observations that it took to deduce that angle) yet didn't make the Pleiades look anything like what they actually look like.

Frank Harrist wrote:There will always be assumptions. There's nothing you can do about that except to make sure that it is known that they are just assumptions. The lay public may take these assumptions as fact, but archaeologists know that they are just assumptions. As I am fond of saying, everything said in archaeology should be prefaced by the phrase; "as far as we can tell so far." How would you handle it, Bob?

"As far as we can tell so far" sounds perfect. The problem is that after a couple of retellings that gets dropped in the interest of brevity. The object is amazing enough.

Generally, they are suggesting that the Bronze Age began in 2,000 BC in the Mid East so you have less than 4 centuries to get this thing to Germany to be buried in the grave. Of course, who is to say that what was brought north wasn't the object but rather the expertise to make it? The item could have been captured in a raid but a person with the knowledge of Bronze could also have been captured. We know from the Ice Man that they already had copper in the 6th millenium BC on the Italian/Austrian border. Learn the secret of adding in a little tin and voila, you have bronze.

True but they depicted the pleiads the same way sumerians and babylonians did ,using a circle of seven stars,one being slightly central ,six others around it .Then there is the question of the sunship .Also an element occuring in egyptian religion .Honnestly I don't know what to make of it but it seems either there was a parralel in the development of myths and religions in Europ ,the Middle-East and Egypt during the bronze age or there was a common root for all this astronomical knowledge dating of course back further in time .. Perhaps there is another explanation but it doesn't cross my mind yet .Time to go to bed ,it is getting late here .

Here is a large, very detailed photo of the Nebra disc:

http://www.archlsa.de/himmel/bilder/bil ... e_copy.jpg

It is certainly interesting. I notice,however, that the workmanship leaves something to be desired. Notice that on the left side, there is a place where the gold filling doesn't lineup with the "star" it represents.
On the right side, there appears to be a star UNDER the "82 deg." gold band.
Notice also that there is no marked center point on the disc, but that must be how the professor measured the 82 degrees. . If there were a center point, the ends of the gold band on the right don't point to it (like radii). I think that if the ancients who made this were measuring degrees, they would have been more careful. However, It has been pointed out that the megalithic stone works from about the same time which are supposed to be observatories or calendars were usually not dressed. I sometimes get a little annoyed when writers say that on the solstice certain things line up "precisely', because the rocks are sometimes rather shapeless and lumpy. Furthermore, 82 degrees is not 80 degrees.
Also notice that on the left side another gold band has been apparently torn away. THe professors don't address that. In fact,the whole thing was torn off something else, perhaps a table top or a wall, or maybe a shield.
I think the symbolism of the sun, moon, stars, and even the sun ship
may be right, though. Interesting that there are no animal figures.
Another thing to mull over is that there hasn't been anything else like this found from nearby in space or time. I would think that such a great discovery would have been emulated.

Anybody having an ideawhy the Plejads were soimportant in so many different civilisations ?

the pleiades rises in exactly the same spot on the vernal equinox (ancient world new year) they used it as a astronomical marker to tell them when the old year was over and the new one began
that means their calendar was exactly one year long
ours has to be adjusted with leap years
the sumerians started the practice and it spread from there
they also depicted the pleiades as a central surrounded by smaller stars
the number of stars isn't always 7 as the accuracy depends on whether its an artistic depiction or an astronomical one
as you can see from this cylinder seal which depicts the new year festival (akitu)

some cities had two Akitu festivals one held halfway through the year during the month depicted by the scorpion
i.e. scorpio
but it is most likely the Pleiades shown on the Nebra disc
the other stars all match constellations important in the ancient world as well
but they haven't released that information yet because orthodoxy takes its time

ReneDescartes wrote:I just finished watching a nice documentary on Arte Channel concerning the Nebra Disc ,an intriguing object which was found near Halle in Germany a few years ago which features amongst others a nice representation of the Plejades .It dates from about 1600 BC . Apparently it contains a lot of astronomical informations making it the first of its kind in history .
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rans.shtml .Halle is not too far from Bosnia after all ,well within trading distance of the period involved .Of course analysis of the disc made very clear it was manufactured near to the spot where it was discovered .But still a lesson that we should not dismiss fantastic claims too lightly . History is alive with fantastic discoveries .
Anybody having an ideawhy the Plejads were soimportant in so many different civilisations ?Perhaps it was just an easily recognizable constellation .Which tales and legends are associated with this starsystem ?

The article that you posted was interesting reading. Did anybody notice how amazed the archaeologists were that Europeans in 1500BC had such astronomical knowledge? The last time I checked, Stonehenge was in Europe.

One of the scientists being interviewed is the same archaeologist in charge of the European "temples" that was reported in 2002. I'm still very interested in those but no other progress report has been released.

Also notice that on the left side another gold band has been apparently torn away.

It does give the appearance of being beaten up on one side.

Perhaps indeed the disc was the center motive of a shield as it was found together with two bronze swords .Apparently the center piece of Achilles shield held a similar motive http://www.chs.harvard.edu/discussion_s ... chilles.pg
as in the Illiad it was described by Homeros .But the Nebra disc predates the Trojan War .Could it be that the Greek epos was inspired by an elder source of mythology ?
It could all be coincidence of course.

when is this going to get back to the bosnian pyramid? this off topic stuff should have started another thread instead of hijacking this one