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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:54 am
by Digit
That spear point is truly a puzzle. The pic of the tools? at 200k may or may not be man? made but they certainly appear to be useable.
One thing puzzles me about the argument as to whether some of these finds are a result of human intervention, or geological forces, is that if water was involved I wouldn't expect to see sharp edges, and none of the flints I've found looked remotely like tools, even those that had been ploughed out of the ground and subject to impact damage didn't seem to have broken into anything like tools.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:09 pm
by Beagle
Charlie Hatchett wrote:Hold on you chaps, could you back up a piece. All this is new to me. Tools 200000yrs old in the Americas, am I reading this right?
This is way, way, before the presumed beginnings of HSS, so who are we looking at? Erectus? Or are several reputations about to bite the dust and we find a new species?
It's a maddening, completely fascinating situation at Hueyatlaco.
Here's a bifacial spearpoint found in situ by Cynthia Irwin-Williams:
http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... biface.TIF
http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/00043.png
Courtesy of Steen-McIntyre
The point was secured by strata dated between 250,000 B.P. (low end- USGS and Donelick) to 1.1 million B.P. (high end- Berkeley/ Renne).
I've never heard of Erectus possessing spear point technology. Puzzling, indeed...
I agree Charlie that spearpoints have not been found in their toolkit before. He could make and control fire, knap flint into axes and knives and scrapers, and according to Bednarik, could traverse the open sea.
Maybe the group that made it to the Americas' was a bit more industrious and enterprising. That piece you displayed was made by a human though.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:53 pm
by Minimalist
spearpoints have not been found in their toolkit before
Perhaps the key word is "found?"
Really, once you have a sharp stick for hunting and also have sharpened stone tools, how much of an intellectual leap is it to put them together.
Compared to knapping the stone in the first place it seems like a minor technical accomplishment.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:04 pm
by Beagle
Perhaps the key word is "found?"
Sure Min, no doubt about it. I can't remember if Erectus was a big game hunter or not. The decision to acquire that kind of weapon depends on the need for one.
He may have been mainly a fisherman, for instance.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:09 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
That spear point is truly a puzzle. The pic of the tools? at 200k may or may not be man? made but they certainly appear to be useable.
I think your speaking of the Calico artifacts, Digit. They're a bit more controversial, but some of the Calico artifacts are no brainers:
http://calicodig.com/node/view/42
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:38 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
Perhaps the key word is "found"?
Yup, or recognize.
Here's a quote from an archeologist at OU:
The decision to acquire that kind of weapon depends on the need for one.
Excellent point, Beag. Why would fishermen need a huge spearpoint, for example.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:49 pm
by Minimalist
Why would fishermen need a huge spearpoint, for example.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:54 pm
by marduk
thats small fry
try this
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:59 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:01 pm
by Digit
I think the spear point, in context, makes perfect sense. As a fisherman, Erectus, or any other species capable of deliberately sharpening a stick to point will soon use it as a fish spear, from there the spear point would, I think, follow logically.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:04 pm
by Beagle
Flint points are not that good for fishing Digit. A tri-pointed gig or a bone harpoon point are usually used.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:10 pm
by Digit
I accept that Beag, a pointed stick is probably even worse, but what I meant was that a pointed stick increases your reach but is rather fragile. If you are already using flint, for eg, a flint point would probably seem worth a try. If the point passed clean through a fish I would expect it not to slide off quite so easily. There must have been many failed attempts at all levels of tool making I imagine.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:37 pm
by Beagle
There must have been many failed attempts at all levels of tool making I imagine.
I agree with that Digit.
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:43 am
by Bruce
Quote:
There must have been many failed attempts at all levels of tool making I imagine.
And probaly a lot of success's that we haven't found or admitted to. IE the NA hand axe!
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:55 am
by Digit
Good point.
... O.K., O.K., your point is understood!!
