Archaeologica.org

Yes. The drying out of the Middle East has been going on for a long time now probably beginning around 6,000 BC.

Some diseases, like Typhoid and HIV, have *carriers*, and even Tuberculosis takes a long time to become debilitating... among HSS. But the paucity of mtDNA suggests that it was something that killed off the women.

like birthing problems arising out of the HSS/HNS hybridization process.

daybrown wrote:Some diseases, like Typhoid and HIV, have *carriers*, and even Tuberculosis takes a long time to become debilitating... among HSS. But the paucity of mtDNA suggests that it was something that killed off the women.
like birthing problems arising out of the HSS/HNS hybridization process.

Perhaps they endured a phase where they produced more sons than daughters, for whatever reason. Why does everything have to hinge on the 'victim' status of females?

The reports are the paleolithic hominid groups were very small, I've seen 12 suggested as common. Were there, at any given few score of years where more males were born than females, in such small groups there'd be years in which the number of females was often *zero*. Which would end *both* the mtDNA and the local Y chromosome.

But we scores of Y chromosome lines in both Europe and the Levant... where they were reported to have come from. Yet- the scores of mtDNA lines in the Levant didnt make it; according to Sykes, just 7.

I dont see this as a matter of victimizing women. The hybridization process in all other mammalian species is highly unpredicable, but since the male reproductive system is so much simpler, more viable male hybrids result. So- not only is it the maternal deathrate of HNS females trying to birth hybrid neonates, but also some portion of the females which are infertile. Either way, the mtDNA line is terminated.

I can see where the HNS females would've preferred the more gracile HSS males, and thereby preclude being physically abused. From what I've read of the HNS, they could go one on one with just about any of the HSS dudes I see today, and come out on top. But then die in childbirth.

daybrown wrote: So- not only is it the maternal deathrate of HNS females trying to birth hybrid neonates

For which you don't have a shred of proof.....

daybrown wrote:I can see where the HNS females would've preferred the more gracile HSS males, and thereby preclude being physically abused

Another unsubstantiated opinion, from someone with an obviously feminist agenda.

Is it a feminist agenda to come up with an explanation of the facts because it is so contrary to the manifestly patriarchic culture we were all socialized in.

Where do we find a Tiresias from an avanced literate culture to offer an opinion on what sexual bias is? As Shakespeare has Caesar say:"You will havta forgive the man; he is a barbarian who thinks the taboos & customs of his people are the laws of Nature." So- we put up with unwaranted dismissiveness,

And we have a large set of facts to be dismissed. Like you can go thru the list of freaks at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022913/ , and not see many that are non-white. PT Barnum displayed Zip, (African) and the original Siamese twins, but everyone else I saw was white. The only other dark face I can recall belonged to the Bearded Lady. And here we have a throwback to homo Erectus adapted to living on the frozen Tundra.

In fact the backs that had enuf hair to create an airspace underr an animal hide were all, otherwise, white. Home Erectus and those since who lived in Asia, could, and did, move back down to the tropical zones when the ice advanced. But the Mediterranean stopped the European hominids from going down to Africa.

I believe it is settled science that every time the ice advanced, the megafauna population plummeted. And thereby starved out lots of the hominids that depended on them. As the smallest regional population, the Native Europeans had the most inbreeding caused by groups being isolated thru 5 months of Ice Age winter. And thereby has the most freaks.

Course, sometimes, the freak is an Einstein, and the progress that comes of the contribution by genius has been remarkable. So- whereas the Chinese kept going south and interbreeding, they maintained some resistance to tropical diseases. But the European hominids didnt get that.

The Origins of Order, by Kauffman, suggests that adaptation to maximize fitness get washed out in the mass of a herivorous herd. And says that only when a population is isolated can adaptation emerge. Which Stanley gets into in Children of the Ice Age. He showed how the hominid population became segmented by rapid swings in climate and dramatic reductions in habitat. And while Stanley is talking about it in Africa, the same thing was going on in Ice Age Europe.

So- admittedly smarts is adaptive, and the Oriental ancestors kept trading genes for temperate zone hunting, which requires more skill with more territory,.. with tropical lines that had better immune systems and better DNA subroutines to abort freaks. You can be stupid in the Tropics, get lost and yet be found some days later. But in the Ice Age, getting lost in winter meant you'd be found dead. And out of the gene pool.

There's a different kind of adaption in the tropics. Record everything a New Guinea highlander knows that he tells you about the flora and fauna on walks, and by the time he's done, years alter,you've got a work the size of Gibbon. its encyclopedic, but not linear. Talk to an Inuit hunter, and there's so much ice with so many landmarks, and so many ways it varies based on Fractle rules, and he's got 1000 times the hunting territory.

Or- consider the mental challenge of knowing the migration routes of megafuana, and the logistics invoved in getting a team to the right place at the right time, then equipped to haul 6 tons of meat home. Since megafauna traveled for 100's of miles, that's a lotta territory to memorize. Likewise, its reported that the Mammoth bone Longhouses on the Don were 100 miles apart.

The migration routes vary a lot, sometimes wiped out by the ice, but there was lotsa eras when the herbivores would have swept south all the way to Iraq, in an era when that region got lots more rain. And then traveled back NW again thru bottlenecks in Anatolian Mountains that also had really damn fine obsidian for points.

And just like at Little Big horn, there'd be good years when the tribes all gather together, (and trade genes) and other times when the hunting is poor, maybe all hunted out, and they are at each other's throats.

So- I can see how there mite be Y chromosome lines not found anywhere else, and Y chromosome lines from the Semites they share, as well as some they dont. But I dont think they've figured out yet where all the Native European Y chromosome has come from prior to 50k or so.

But in any case, the Europeans, whoever they were, were pushed south during every ice advance, close to extinction in Spain, Italy, & Greece, with only a few finding a way over the mountains to the decently warm Levant.
Groups of hominids have pushed the envelop to live on the edge of the technology in more recent times, and been totally wiped out. Given that the climate swings of the Ice Ages was far more sever, it wouldda wiped out lots of groups.

It gave them a fetish of fat mommas who could pop kids out by the dozen to repopulate a decimated population. And empowered the women who could do this. Look at them; we still see their fat asses all over white culture. Men dont push them around like we see in other cultures. Lotsa languages dont even have a word for "henpecked".

I dont promote feminism; it dont *need* my promotion. But we can see samples of cultures ruled by women in the past, and get some clue as to just what we are in for. It aint utopia. There's lotsa bitches. But whether in Chinese or European breeds, these bitches can count better. They hadda know how much food to put up for the winter. Also- they werent letting mothers and kids starve in order to feed harems.

Another element missing from the usual patriarchic view of history as that of the warriors, is the fact that many pandemics have swept thru the hominids. Which is eggzactly what Kauffman says, by pointing out how much more robust the immune systems of herd animals are. Consider what happened to the Warrior class during the Black Death. They died the same as almost everyone else. The most likely survivors those from remote villages with the herbal knowledge of their witches intact.

There's lotsa Native European myths about some warrior defeating Medusa or some other witch. Which tells us what they were afraid of. And the 'witches' are coming back in Native European culture the same as indigenous shamen in non-white cultures.

The earliest evidence I know of shamanism is from the grave at Shanidar, Iraq. 52,000 years ago, buried with seven important medicinal herbs, including an emmenegogue, Cyanus Centaurea. The shaman was Neanderthal. I dont think he was the only Neanderthal that knew what the important plants were, and where they were to be found in Europe.

Just like the New Guinea hunter, the Neanderthal knew the territory, and the honkies who listened to what he had to say had a much better chance of staying in the gene pool. Furthermore, the hybrids that inherited this herbal knowledge as well as the habits of the megafauna would have had an enormous economic advantage.

Of course, I'm open to any other explanation of the facts we have.

daybrown wrote:Is it a feminist agenda to come up with an explanation of the facts because it is so contrary to the manifestly patriarchic culture we were all socialized in

You haven't; all you've done is repeat your own fixations ad nauseum.

daybrown wrote:Where do we find a Tiresias from an avanced literate culture to offer an opinion on what sexual bias is? As Shakespeare has Caesar say:"You will havta forgive the man; he is a barbarian who thinks the taboos & customs of his people are the laws of Nature." So- we put up with unwaranted dismissiveness,

Shakespeare was a playwright, not a sociologist.

daybrown wrote:And we have a large set of facts to be dismissed. Like you can go thru the list of freaks at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022913/ , and not see many that are non-white. PT Barnum displayed Zip, (African) and the original Siamese twins, but everyone else I saw was white. The only other dark face I can recall belonged to the Bearded Lady. And here we have a throwback to homo Erectus adapted to living on the frozen Tundra.

As I've already pointed out-and you conveniently chose to ignore- that only proves that the circuses visited had more Caucasian inmates. It doesn't prove that Caucasians had more people who suffered from deformities. And the last sentence is sheer rubbish.
I also asked in what capacity you worked in mental institutions, since you seem to regard it as a qualification to know what you're talking about. I'm still waiting on an answer.

daybrown wrote:In fact the backs that had enuf hair to create an airspace underr an animal hide were all, otherwise, white. Home Erectus and those since who lived in Asia, could, and did, move back down to the tropical zones when the ice advanced. But the Mediterranean stopped the European hominids from going down to Africa.

Because according to you, they wouldn't have had the intellligence to follow migrating herds of beasts round its shores. Yea, right.

daybrown wrote:I believe it is settled science that every time the ice advanced, the megafauna population plummeted. And thereby starved out lots of the hominids that depended on them

No you're not; since you'll just quote some other doe-eyed disciple of Gimbutjas as 'gospel'.

daybrown wrote:Is it a feminist agenda to come up with an explanation of the facts because it is so contrary to the manifestly patriarchic culture we were all socialized in.

Where do we find a Tiresias from an avanced literate culture to offer an opinion on what sexual bias is? As Shakespeare has Caesar say:"You will havta forgive the man; he is a barbarian who thinks the taboos & customs of his people are the laws of Nature." So- we put up with unwaranted dismissiveness,

And we have a large set of facts to be dismissed. Like you can go thru the list of freaks at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022913/ , and not see many that are non-white. PT Barnum displayed Zip, (African) and the original Siamese twins, but everyone else I saw was white. The only other dark face I can recall belonged to the Bearded Lady. And here we have a throwback to homo Erectus adapted to living on the frozen Tundra.

In fact the backs that had enuf hair to create an airspace underr an animal hide were all, otherwise, white. Home Erectus and those since who lived in Asia, could, and did, move back down to the tropical zones when the ice advanced. But the Mediterranean stopped the European hominids from going down to Africa.

I believe it is settled science that every time the ice advanced, the megafauna population plummeted. And thereby starved out lots of the hominids that depended on them. As the smallest regional population, the Native Europeans had the most inbreeding caused by groups being isolated thru 5 months of Ice Age winter. And thereby has the most freaks.

Course, sometimes, the freak is an Einstein, and the progress that comes of the contribution by genius has been remarkable. So- whereas the Chinese kept going south and interbreeding, they maintained some resistance to tropical diseases. But the European hominids didnt get that.

The Origins of Order, by Kauffman, suggests that adaptation to maximize fitness get washed out in the mass of a herivorous herd. And says that only when a population is isolated can adaptation emerge. Which Stanley gets into in Children of the Ice Age. He showed how the hominid population became segmented by rapid swings in climate and dramatic reductions in habitat. And while Stanley is talking about it in Africa, the same thing was going on in Ice Age Europe.

So- admittedly smarts is adaptive, and the Oriental ancestors kept trading genes for temperate zone hunting, which requires more skill with more territory,.. with tropical lines that had better immune systems and better DNA subroutines to abort freaks. You can be stupid in the Tropics, get lost and yet be found some days later. But in the Ice Age, getting lost in winter meant you'd be found dead. And out of the gene pool.

There's a different kind of adaption in the tropics. Record everything a New Guinea highlander knows that he tells you about the flora and fauna on walks, and by the time he's done, years alter,you've got a work the size of Gibbon. its encyclopedic, but not linear. Talk to an Inuit hunter, and there's so much ice with so many landmarks, and so many ways it varies based on Fractle rules, and he's got 1000 times the hunting territory.

Or- consider the mental challenge of knowing the migration routes of megafuana, and the logistics invoved in getting a team to the right place at the right time, then equipped to haul 6 tons of meat home. Since megafauna traveled for 100's of miles, that's a lotta territory to memorize. Likewise, its reported that the Mammoth bone Longhouses on the Don were 100 miles apart.

The migration routes vary a lot, sometimes wiped out by the ice, but there was lotsa eras when the herbivores would have swept south all the way to Iraq, in an era when that region got lots more rain. And then traveled back NW again thru bottlenecks in Anatolian Mountains that also had really damn fine obsidian for points.

And just like at Little Big horn, there'd be good years when the tribes all gather together, (and trade genes) and other times when the hunting is poor, maybe all hunted out, and they are at each other's throats.

So- I can see how there mite be Y chromosome lines not found anywhere else, and Y chromosome lines from the Semites they share, as well as some they dont. But I dont think they've figured out yet where all the Native European Y chromosome has come from prior to 50k or so.

But in any case, the Europeans, whoever they were, were pushed south during every ice advance, close to extinction in Spain, Italy, & Greece, with only a few finding a way over the mountains to the decently warm Levant.
Groups of hominids have pushed the envelop to live on the edge of the technology in more recent times, and been totally wiped out. Given that the climate swings of the Ice Ages was far more sever, it wouldda wiped out lots of groups.

It gave them a fetish of fat mommas who could pop kids out by the dozen to repopulate a decimated population. And empowered the women who could do this. Look at them; we still see their fat asses all over white culture. Men dont push them around like we see in other cultures. Lotsa languages dont even have a word for "henpecked".

I dont promote feminism; it dont *need* my promotion. But we can see samples of cultures ruled by women in the past, and get some clue as to just what we are in for. It aint utopia. There's lotsa bitches. But whether in Chinese or European breeds, these bitches can count better. They hadda know how much food to put up for the winter. Also- they werent letting mothers and kids starve in order to feed harems.

Another element missing from the usual patriarchic view of history as that of the warriors, is the fact that many pandemics have swept thru the hominids. Which is eggzactly what Kauffman says, by pointing out how much more robust the immune systems of herd animals are. Consider what happened to the Warrior class during the Black Death. They died the same as almost everyone else. The most likely survivors those from remote villages with the herbal knowledge of their witches intact.

There's lotsa Native European myths about some warrior defeating Medusa or some other witch. Which tells us what they were afraid of. And the 'witches' are coming back in Native European culture the same as indigenous shamen in non-white cultures.

The earliest evidence I know of shamanism is from the grave at Shanidar, Iraq. 52,000 years ago, buried with seven important medicinal herbs, including an emmenegogue, Cyanus Centaurea. The shaman was Neanderthal. I dont think he was the only Neanderthal that knew what the important plants were, and where they were to be found in Europe.

Just like the New Guinea hunter, the Neanderthal knew the territory, and the honkies who listened to what he had to say had a much better chance of staying in the gene pool. Furthermore, the hybrids that inherited this herbal knowledge as well as the habits of the megafauna would have had an enormous economic advantage.

Of course, I'm open to any other explanation of the facts we have.

Wow...
Have you ever been scr*&^ed properly?
I recommend it!
It'll change your whole outlook on life...

I object to this abusive rhetoric used by Rocket:

Wow...
Have you ever been scr*&^ed properly?
I recommend it!
It'll change your whole outlook on life... Laughing

Show some courtesy, please.

I agree; it was completely uncalled for, and demeaning to the forum's female membership.

RK Awl-O'Gist wrote:I agree; it was completely uncalled for, and demeaning to the forum's female membership.

A little bit of perspective, please: this 'lady' has been "demeaning" males unrelentingly from day one. Thank you very much.
She's never accorded, nor deserves any restraint in that area.
Tit for tat.

Daybrown has scrupulously avoided personal attacks.

Do you really feel threatened, Rokcet?

I stand up for my mates when they are under attack, stan.
You, obviously, do the opposite.
What does that make you, stan?

Rocket,

Sorry, but this time you blew it. I may not agree with Daybrown, but at least she takes the time to explain what her arguments are, and does not attack anyone personally. What you wrote was a personal insult, an entirely different thing, and totally unnecessary. It is the sign of a weak argument. I stand with Stan and RK Awl-O'Gist on this one.

Rokcet,

I have been reading this board a bit before deciding to really jump in. But in this case, I have to say that Stan, Forester, AK Awl are correct in this matter. You should not have personally attacked Daybrown. It was blatently a cheap shot.

As an ex-officer of the National Organization for Women, I could say a lot about your post that would not be nice. I do not completely agree with Day's posts but there might be many reasons for this. I was and am still a scientist at heart. However, cheap shots are not the way to argue.