Thanks for replying, Beags. I’m glad to have the opportunity answer your points.
Beagle wrote:I have resisted posting my thoughts on this subject, but the notion that ancient shaman invented mathematics, etc, prompts me to say something.
The word shaman probably originated in Central Asia. Some of us baby boomers may picture the figure as a "witch doctor" or "medicine man". These people filled an integral role in primitive cultures, even in recent times. We do not know for sure when the first shaman appeared, but it was in the Paleolithic, as a hunter/gatherer.
Yes, you’re right. The word ‘shaman’ is Siberian, and these sages and seers were known by many different names throughout the world. One of the names for these sages in India was ‘rishi’ and another was ‘muni’. Both these words for sages occur in the Rig-veda and many of the ‘hymns’ in the Rig –veda are attributed to these rishis. And as we know, the Vedas contains some of the science that I mentioned earlier. So this is the earliest attested shamanic science.
This is from Wiki on mathematics:
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics
Indian mathematics—which here is the mathematics that emerged in South Asia[1] from ancient times until the end of the 18th century—had its beginnings in the Bronze Age Indus Valley civilization (2600-1900 BCE) and the Iron Age Vedic culture (1500-500 BCE).
Beagle wrote:
The shaman was probably an elder member of the group, and was known primarily as a Healer. Through a long process of trial and error, over generations, the shaman knew that there was medicinal power in many plants. He found that some plants would cure scurvy, and others would fight infection. He learned to make poultices and potions for various ailments. Within his limited understanding, it appeared that he could drive out evil spirits. This is truly the beginning of herbal medicine.
This is early science.
Your 'long process of trial and error', while an attractive theory, is not how the Rig-vedic rishi or shaman says that he arrived at his knowledge. He calls the guidance he got ‘sruti’, meaning ‘that which is heard’. Just like the Amazonian shaman today, (which the US pharmaceutical companies rely on) the shaman in the Rig-veda claims he got this guidance on the medicinal properties of plants (and much else) from the spirits of the plants themselves. The word ‘spirits’ or ‘devas’ has been translated as ‘gods’. Therefore this is entirely in keeping with how shamans get their guidance today, and thus not just a New Age fad.
I thought you might find this interesting. It is from Wiki on the health care in the Atharva Veda: (my bolding)
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atharvaveda
The AV is the first Indic text dealing with medicine. It identifies the causes of disease as living causative agents such as the yatudhāna, the kimīdin, the krimi or kami and the durnāma. The Atharvans seek to kill them with a variety of incantations or plant based drugs in order to counter the disease (see XIX.34.9). This approach to disease is quite different compared to the trihumoral theory of Ayurveda. Remnants of the original atharvanic thought did persist, as can be seen in Suśruta's medical treatise and in (Garuḍa Purāṇa, karma kāṃḍa - chapter: 164). Here following the Atharvan theory the Purāṇic text suggests germs as a cause for leprosy. In the same chapter Suśruta also expands on the role of helminths in disease. These two can be directly traced back to the AV samhitā. The hymn AV I.23-24 describes the disease leprosy and recommends the rajani auṣadhi for its treatment.
From the description of the aumadhi as black branching entity with dusky patches, it is very likely that is a lichen with antibiotic properties. Thus the AV may be one of the earliest texts to record uses of the antibiotic agents.
Beagle wrote:
Today, it seems to me, the word shaman has been hijacked by New Age mystics. This is not the first word to be hijacked by one group or another. New Age mysticism arose in the 1970's and enjoyed a great deal of notoriety for awhile, and prompted the authoring of many, many books. Lately, it seems that the same themes are showing up in bookstores under the title of shamanism.
I have noticed discussion, in the archaeology forum, of members claiming to be channeling their spirit guides, and engaging in inter-dimensional travel, among other things. This is New Age bullshit.
Well, that’s your opinion and your entitled to it. But it might be more helpful to keep our personal opinions out of this – and especially when if involves such inflammatory language – and look instead of what we can attest to.
Interestingly, our old friend and sparring partner Michael Witzel has recently published a paper showing how the Rig-vedic rishis were shamans. He did this by tracing the commonalities between the practices – such as the horse sacrifice - and the words used in rituals in the Rig-veda and that of the Siberian shamans and others in Central Asia.
I don’t think any of these shamans, or the ones in Mircae Eliade’s book. Shamanism: Archiac Techniques of Ecstasy, could be accused of being New Age.
There is a good abstract here about it from Witzel’s colleague George Thompson:
Shamanism in the Rig Veda and its Central Asian antecedents by George Thompson - abstract
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:-T ... cd=3&gl=uk
There have been several attempts over the past decade to identify traces of shamanism in Rigveda, but for the most part they have been impressionistic and not entirely convincing. I myself have recently suggested that there are shamanistic elements in some of the Soma hymns, though notably not among the Soma-hymns of the ninth book of the RV. Whatever their reasons for it may be, Vedicists for the most part seem to have been reluctant to accept such claims. Nevertheless, I am persuaded that shamanism is a far more important presence in the RV than is generally conceded, and therefore it is with pleasure that I notice that, in a recent paper delivered at the Third International Vedic Workshop in 2002, Michael Witzel has repeatedly pointed to shamanic motifs and themes in the Rigveda, citing their likely antecedents in Central Asia and the Hindu Kush.
From this abstract, we can see that there is a good case for the earliest written attestation of shaman’s practising what we now call science being that which is in the Vedas. Thus, the earliest scientists were shamans.
Beagle wrote:
These are my personal views, and I respect anyone’s right to believe anything that they want. But, as some others have said, modern shamanism cannot be confused with science, and I'm happy that the subject is now in this forum.
I only wish that, in one of our many threads, we had discussed the paleolithic shaman, since he/she was a pivotal figure in man's early culture.
That’s what I’ve been attempting to do. The modern shaman derives their information and guidance from exactly the same place as the Rig-vedic shamans claimed to ...from
sruti, from the devas or the spirits.
It’s not New Age, Beags. It’s Old Age. In fact...it's bloody ancient!
