In search of the Palaeo shaman

[rich]

Also found this on Walsh's stuff. Results and techniches used to test them.

http://bradshaw.dk/pages/frames/frames.html

Some experts believe Bradshaw rock art may be up to 60,000 years old, however dating the Bradshaw rock art system is a notoriously difficult task. To date, two different techniques have been used: thermoluminescence and radiocarbon dating. Analysis of single quartz grains embedded in a mud wasp nest using the luminescence method have provided a minimum date of 17,500 (±1,800) years before present (BP).
The second technique using the radiocarbon method has indicated more recent dates of 1,450 to 3,900 years BP. The vast time span represented by these dates may either mirror problems with utlized dating techniques, or may genuinely reflect a long-lived art tradition in Kimberley stretching across hundreds of generations. The abundance of Bradshaw paintings, coupled with the presence of four distinctly different painting styles and evidence of artwork restorations, might support this idea.

[Ishtar]

Also found this on Walsh's stuff. Rseults and techniches used to test them.

http://bradshaw.dk/pages/frames/frames.html

. Analysis of single quartz grains embedded in a mud wasp nest using the luminescence method have provided a minimum date of 17,500 (±1,800) years before present (BP).

Sorry to get back on topic ( ) and I'm very excited about the boat and all, but I must just quickly pick this up before it gets lost - bees and crystals.

Quartz is very big in Australian shamanism. They have traditionally used quartz crystals more than any other shamanic culture. Instead of the classic shamanic dismemberment as an initiatory technique in altered reality, quartz crystals are embedded wthin the chest area of the initiate. They also use crystals when they journey.

The quartz granules were found in a wasps nest. Bee shamanism has an ancient lineage worldwide... although I don't know about Australia.

Of course, it could just be coincidence.

[rich]

That's interesting. Wonder if it may have been covered with them on purpose back then?

Plus in your link ( http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:US ... helm2/boat. ) or the pdf one http://koti.welho.com/alahelm2/boat.pdf ) they definitely relate it to shaman. They also mention red ochre - (hematite, John?)

A little over one hundred prehistoric rock paintings, of which some eighty have identifiable figures,are known today to exist in Finland (Lahelma in press). The paintings are made with red ochre onopen-air rock cliffs rising at lake shores, sometimes also on large erratic boulders. The range ofmotifs in these paintings is rather limited, with images of elks, stick-figure humans and boatsmaking up approximately 80% of all the images of Finnish rock paintings. The remainder consistsof some representations mainly of fish, birds, snakes and geometric figures.

[rich]

Ish -

Do any of the shaman stories relate instances of traveling to this side of the pond way back? Or are there any references thru the vedas mentioned?

[rich]

Also, Ish, how would someone looking at say a cave painting be able to tell that it would be Shamanic and whether or not they are trying to convey a message of actual travel by water versus travel thru a different plain? Or would the Shaman concern themselves with this?
Hopefully they would, but just wondering how to at least have a clue to it if possible.

[Ishtar]

Rich

The Vedas is far too late to show us anything about the Palaeolithic. They were composed by shamans, sure. But even at their most radical dating (which I and possibly Beags would sign up to) it’s only 3,000 BC. Secondly, I’m not aware of any boats in the Vedas, although Krishna’s brother, Bala, does take a river boat journey in the Srimad Bhagavatham, one of later Vedantic books (c.1,000 BC).

So much of how to tell a shamanic painting is in the eye of beholder, which is why I so fervently resist any attempts by scientists (with no expertise in the history of shamanism) to pronounce categorically on what these paintings are.

Those who are convinced that Palaeo man’s main preoccupation was his stomach always interpret the Sorcerer as a man disguised in an animal skin to help with the hunting. From no evidence whatsoever, they decide that he must have gone among the herds in this disguise in some way – although why he would do this, we are not told....and why the other animals would have been fooled by that...well, we are in Alice in Wonderland territory! The scientist then publishes this pure speculation and it becomes ‘scientific theory’, notwithstanding the fact that a scientific theory is so much more than just a theory that’s been dreamed up by a scientist.

(As you can see, you’ve got me on a sore point there …!)

However, the reason I’m posting on all the known shamanic motifs that can be attested to with Eliade’s later 19th and early 20th century shamans (like birds on sticks, spirit boats and so on), is so that we can then trace these motifs to Palaeo cave paintings – the Bird Man of Lascaux being a very good example of that.

In terms of boats, the elk boat will be a good one to watch out for in Scandinavia and northern Europe. But I will continue rifling through my research to come up with others.

[Ishtar]

In terms of boats between the Australian continent and the Indian one – Indian historians will tell you that the land, at one time, was joined by a causeway-like ridge that ran from under the Himalayas, out through the bay at Calcutta and then down through the Indonesian islands into Australia.

I think this subject came up before and it caused a row, so I hesitate to mention it.

[Beagle]

Don't you think the figures in the boat look a bit strange though? The two on the left are barely discernible as human. The one second from left looks like some odd animal. And are those arms or oars ... and why are they in such odd positions?



Or am I just not seeing it right?

This is an interesting pic. The prow of the boat (and it is a boat) is on the left. The three figures there are facing away from the prow with their arms behind them. This indicates that they are rowing in standard rowboat fashion (and this a shock, for that time period), and the figure to the far right has a symbol coming from his mouth that makes me think he is giving orders to the rowers.

The one figure would have to be an ancient kangaroo I imagine, since it's from Australia. The rest are unidentifiable to me but are probably more iconographic representations.

I don't see how that kind of rowboat would be present at that time. I'll study it some more....and expect me to steal it to another of our forums sometime in the future. John, are you sure of that dating?

Beagle -

Nevermind the identities of the various animals and people actually rowing

The boat. The shamanic implications, however, are sublime.

What you have, on the left, is a high prow,

A wave breaker.

This is characteristic of open water boats; it sheds water from

An oncoming sea.

Keeps you from having a "wet boat."

What you have at the stern is the same,

But from a following sea.

The truly, incredibly interesting item on the right,

At the bottom of the boat

Is the rudimentary keel.

Holy Shit, Batman,

They had keels figured out a long, long, time ago.

A keel keeps any boat tracking its course

In any kind of water, and,

Bigtime reduces the physical effort to propel

The craft to its intended course.

And, provisionally, yes

Regarding the dating.

What it tells me is that the antecedents of

The Aussie Aboriginals

Had seaworthy open rowing boats which

Probably started off small,

Say 18'-20'

And grew to bigger stuff,

Say 30'-40'.

Whether skin on frame or

Plank on frame I don't know,

But either would have served the purpose.



Now, I don't know why Graham is being so coy about actual pictures - I emailed his site last night.

No answer.

Nonetheless, I'll keep at it.



hoka hey



john

John, I can't find the source of this pic anywhere. The boat looks too modern to me and I'm thinking that the dating is wrong. Can you give me some source and/or evidence?

This boat looks like 17th century Indonesian boats!
Thanks for your help.

[Ishtar]

Rich

This is what I meant (from Wiki):

Geologically, the Sunda Shelf is an extension of the continental shelf of Southeast Asia, covered during interglacials by the South China Sea, which isolates as islands Borneo, Sumatra Java and smaller islands. During glacial periods, the sea level falls, and great expanses of the Sunda Shelf are exposed as a marshy plain. The seas and bays that cover the Sunda Shelf are less than 100 m deep.

Steep undersea gradients separate the Sunda Shelf from the Philippines, Sulawesi and the Lesser Sunda Islands, where the dividing line, passing between Bali and Lombok, is marked by a major discontinuity in fauna that is known as the Wallace Line from Alfred Russel Wallace, the biologist who first recognized it in the 19th century.

[rich]

Beags:

I wrote this above - may help some.

Also found this on Walsh's stuff. Results and techniches used to test them.

http://bradshaw.dk/pages/frames/frames.html

Quote:
Some experts believe Bradshaw rock art may be up to 60,000 years old, however dating the Bradshaw rock art system is a notoriously difficult task. To date, two different techniques have been used: thermoluminescence and radiocarbon dating. Analysis of single quartz grains embedded in a mud wasp nest using the luminescence method have provided a minimum date of 17,500 (±1,800) years before present (BP).
The second technique using the radiocarbon method has indicated more recent dates of 1,450 to 3,900 years BP. The vast time span represented by these dates may either mirror problems with utlized dating techniques, or may genuinely reflect a long-lived art tradition in Kimberley stretching across hundreds of generations. The abundance of Bradshaw paintings, coupled with the presence of four distinctly different painting styles and evidence of artwork restorations, might support this idea.

[rich]

Ish -

K - was wondering tho if you've come across anything in the Shaman traditions that may have pointed to some evidence of travel between Europe and the USA, either myths, or rituals, or anything, or if there could be anyway to search thru any carvings or paintings that may indicate some awareness back then of oceanic travels.

Or if there is a way for people to be better able to understand the cave art and such that may lend itself to finding some evidence.

Another possibility may be from studying similarities between the shamanic cultures in the Americas and Europe-Asia-Africa that may show a closer relationship between a culture here in the Americas to a more specific culture of Shamanism iin either of Europe, Asia, or Africa. Or are they so closely knit that it would be impossible to spot?
In other words, if we could pin down one or more Shamanic traditions over here in America to a more specific time/area in any of the other areas. Especially in the more ancient ones.

[Ishtar]

And are you offering to fund this PhD work?

[Ishtar]

Have just created a Shamanic Boats thread, so let's keep the boats in there now.

[john]

All -

http://www.everyculture.com/East-Southe ... lture.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sha/sis/index.htm


I'm starting to think that a number of roads - like Hematite -

Lead to the Ainu.

The second link, if you care to explore it in its entirety, is pretty comprehensive.


hoka hey

john

[Ishtar]

Yes, John ... I'd already noticed the hematite/red ochre in that second link, and it's all over the Kimberley Australian stuff. In fact, it's everywhere.

I'm wondering, though, what you mean lead to the Ainu. From where? and have you seen this:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/ainu/index.htm